The Temple—How might it be taken?

Kytheros wrote:

SWM wrote:As Duckk said...

Langhorne was killed along with most of his inner circle when Pei set off a pocket nuclear bomb inside Langhorne's headquarters. That started the War of the Fallen, a fight for succession between the surviving followers of Langhorne. The ones who survived that War continued acting as Archangels for quite a bit longer. They were all getting old when they gave their last benedictions to the people of Safehold. We don't really know who they were, how fanatical they were, what their plans were. We certainly cannot say that they were fanatical enough to do as you suggest; nor can we say they weren't. That's what the speculation is about.

Not quite, we know that Chihiro and Schueler were amongst the (surviving) leaders of the surviving/winning/trucing faction(s).
We know this because the Chihiro and Schueler's books were added afterwards, and the Temple wasn't built until later, and the Key given to the Wylsynn's by Schueler is intended for something under the Temple.

Beyond that, though, we've got very little in the way of evidence.

Yes, we know "Chihiro" and "Schueler". But those are just names. Merlin doesn't know who they were, doesn't know anything about them except what she has heard from Safeholders who regarded them as Archangels. My point is that we don't know who they really were, what they wanted, how fanatical they were about the Langhorne Plan, etc.

SWM wrote:As Duckk said... <snip>

point made on Langhorne's apparent death ...yet we now know from the last novel that multiple PICA's for one individual can exist, and that the 'Angels' flying around in Safehold history during the early days of the church could very well have been PICA's and not humans (ok, maybe more a hypothesis than cold hard fact ).... so I'm still betting that one of Langhorne's safeguards was to stick some PICA's down there when a drastic response is "needed" by the Church....

ranran wrote:

SWM wrote:As Duckk said... <snip>

point made on Langhorne's apparent death ...yet we now know from the last novel that multiple PICA's for one individual can exist, and that the 'Angels' flying around in Safehold history during the early days of the church could very well have been PICA's and not humans (ok, maybe more a hypothesis than cold hard fact ).... so I'm still betting that one of Langhorne's safeguards was to stick some PICA's down there when a drastic response is "needed" by the Church....

But there was no "down there" after the nuke killed Langhorne. The nuke took out Langhorne's headquarters. The current Temple was built after the War of the Fallen.

David has also stated pretty clearly that Langhorne did not want any PICAs running around on Safehold. See: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6072&p=155902&hilit=PICA+Langhorne#p155902.

I would also point out that there is no need to speculate on a stash of technology left behind by Langhorne. He did better than that--he left the ability to build any technology needed. More precisely, Langhorne never got the chance to destroy the last spaceship before he died. We know that the survivors of the War of the Fallen still had access to the manufacturing facility on the last remaining spaceship. They used it to rebuild the Rakurai, and presumably used it to build the Temple, after the War was over. They could have built anything they wanted, including PICAs.

So, we know that Langhorne would not have built PICAs. But we don't know whether his successors did.

By the way, I hope you don't think I'm picking on you. It's not a bad hypothesis, and in fact came up several times before, at least until David poked a stake into it. Welcome to the forum!

Merlin is unwilling to nuke Zion, killing millions quickly but cruelly.

Killing millions slowly and cruelly with a blockade might be out of the question for him.

The Temple has high-tech sensors and door locks. Are they software driven? That software hasn't had a security patch in nine centuries. Set Owl to work building attack tools. While an Inquisitor is sleeping it off at a house of ill fame, have an Owl remote reverse-engineer his official credentials.

Simpler approaches are often better. Why not locate the main air intake for the Temple and set off a stink bomb or a few barrels of tear gas? For extra points, have that come a few days after a prophecy goes through the rumor mill that the stench of the Vicars's own corruption will manifest in the world and drive them from God's house weeping and lamenting.

Instead of pilgrams to the Temple staging a coup, how about refugees from Sidmark, Desnair, even Harchong?

Expert snuggler wrote:The Temple has high-tech sensors and door locks. Are they software driven? That software hasn't had a security patch in nine centuries. Set Owl to work building attack tools. While an Inquisitor is sleeping it off at a house of ill fame, have an Owl remote reverse-engineer his official credentials.

There is no evidence that the Temple require high-tech keys or credentials to enter the building. As far as we know, the entrances are currently protected by contemporary defenses. It's not getting into the Temple that poses a problem for Charis--it is getting into Zion.

There may be (probably are) high-tech defenses for the hidden depths of the Temple. However, the fact that they have not had security patches for nine centuries is irrelevant, since Owl hasn't had an upgrade in nine centuries, either. In fact, Owl was put to sleep a century before the Temple was built, and only woke up a few years ago.

SWM wrote:

Expert snuggler wrote:The Temple has high-tech sensors and door locks. Are they software driven? That software hasn't had a security patch in nine centuries. Set Owl to work building attack tools. While an Inquisitor is sleeping it off at a house of ill fame, have an Owl remote reverse-engineer his official credentials.

There is no evidence that the Temple require high-tech keys or credentials to enter the building. As far as we know, the entrances are currently protected by contemporary defenses. It's not getting into the Temple that poses a problem for Charis--it is getting into Zion.

There may be (probably are) high-tech defenses for the hidden depths of the Temple. However, the fact that they have not had security patches for nine centuries is irrelevant, since Owl hasn't had an upgrade in nine centuries, either. In fact, Owl was put to sleep a century before the Temple was built, and only woke up a few years ago.

Getting into Zion is a problem how? The place has no defenses and no regular troops defending it. Land an army at Port Harbor and you are in...

Don

A few years is plenty long enough to invent new attack tools even for unboosted humans. Owl may still be too literal to think outside the box the way a cracker must, but he has help with sneakiness and lateral thinking now.

It's specifically the restricted areas and the private quarters that would require a breakin. There are some vital targets there. For only one thing, I worry that Charisian Marines who came in the front door would meet unpleasant surprises from machinery in the non-public areas.

Expert snuggler wrote:A few years is plenty long enough to invent new attack tools even for unboosted humans. Owl may still be too literal to think outside the box the way a cracker must, but he has help with sneakiness and lateral thinking now.

It's specifically the restricted areas and the private quarters that would require a breakin. There are some vital targets there. For only one thing, I worry that Charisian Marines who came in the front door would meet unpleasant surprises from machinery in the non-public areas.

I wouldn't send anybody into the temple without think it through very carefully...

Don

SWM wrote:There is no evidence that the Temple require high-tech keys or credentials to enter the building. As far as we know, the entrances are currently protected by contemporary defenses. It's not getting into the Temple that poses a problem for Charis--it is getting into Zion.

There's no evidence against either, especially when the Temple has an "Open Door" policy when it comes to pilgrims. When you have a constant flow of traffic going in and out of the Temple, it's simply easier to keep the door open all the time than to shut it when no one's going through at the moment.

But if I were designing the Temple, and if I were as paranoid as the original designers seemed to be, then I'd put lockable doors on the main entrance. If the right emergency came up (a beseiging Charisian army for example), then the only thing needed to close and lock the front doors would be the door guard pressing a few "God Lights" in a panel just inside the doors.

Heck, it wouldn't surprise me if the Temple Guard has actual procedures for how to defend the Temple from attack handed down from the Archangels themselves. They just never expect to actually need to USE them, but they'd be on the books all the same.

And of course, we don't know if they have any of this stuff because the Temple has NEVER come under attack. Yet. So there's been no need so far to do an exposition dump on it.