Nitpicking at A Rising Thunder...

...because I was re-reading it this weekend and this has been bothering me...(and no, it's not the ridiculous number of missile pods or the too-low SLN casualties at 2nd Manticore (I've already grumped about those).

It's this...

In fairness, the Roulette System’s government hadn’t been enthralled by the Manticorans’ arrival in its system, either. Although Roulette normally enjoyed cordial relations with both Beowulf and the Star Empire, it had been deliberately distancing itself from Manticore ever since news of the New Tuscany Incident hit the Solarian ’faxes. Given that Roulette was little more than a hundred light-years from the Sol System itself, it was difficult to blame President Matsuo or the rest of his government for not wanting to irritate the League. Unfortunately for them however, the Roulette Terminus was on Lacoön Two’s list, and Magellan had swooped in across the alpha wall and secured control of the terminus before anyone could make transit through it to alert Limbo of what was coming.

He’d detached one of his escorting destroyer squadrons and the CLAC Ozymandias to sit on the Roulette Terminus, then headed through to Limbo, where his ships’ emergence from the terminus associated with that star system had taken the locals completely by surprise.

Bolding and italic mine.

Wait a second. An 'independent' star nation 100 LY from Sol which puts it squarely in the Shell, if not in the Core itself, with a wormhole terminus to boot, and the SL/OFS hasn't got its' hooks in it? Given the conduct out on the Verge with the Protectorates, it seems unlikely that there are any real 'independent' systems that deep into the SL.

Perhaps it's just to small to be noticed (with a wormhole..HA) or it has some behind the back deals with some of the Core Worlds...but it is a puzzlement, at least for me.

As for the second, eight DD's (and not all can be Rolands--there were 46 built pre-1st Manticore per HoS, and even with the python lump, there are still limited numbers of Rolands out there) and a CLAC (along with missile pods dropped off by the Ammo ship) holding a wormhole within a 12-day dispatch boat ride to Sol stikes me as...risky. And with the possibility that a SLN base may be even closer than that in one of the Core Worlds makes it even more risky. Yes, Commodore Magellan notes that there are more and stronger forces heading that way, but until they get there, if I was in command of those 8 tincans (call them 2 Rolands, 4 Culverins, and 2 Chansons) and the CLAC, I would be watching the hyper limit with some modest concern.

Not major nitpicks, I grant you, but as another poster said, we've got a year until the next book and we need soemthing(s) to discuss. So I offer this, and hope you can ease the stress on my troubled brow....

Hutch wrote:...because I was re-reading it this weekend and this has been bothering me...(and no, it's not the ridiculous number of missile pods or the too-low SLN casualties at 2nd Manticore (I've already grumped about those).

It's this...

In fairness, the Roulette System’s government hadn’t been enthralled by the Manticorans’ arrival in its system, either. Although Roulette normally enjoyed cordial relations with both Beowulf and the Star Empire, it had been deliberately distancing itself from Manticore ever since news of the New Tuscany Incident hit the Solarian ’faxes. Given that Roulette was little more than a hundred light-years from the Sol System itself, it was difficult to blame President Matsuo or the rest of his government for not wanting to irritate the League. Unfortunately for them however, the Roulette Terminus was on Lacoön Two’s list, and Magellan had swooped in across the alpha wall and secured control of the terminus before anyone could make transit through it to alert Limbo of what was coming.

He’d detached one of his escorting destroyer squadrons and the CLAC Ozymandias to sit on the Roulette Terminus, then headed through to Limbo, where his ships’ emergence from the terminus associated with that star system had taken the locals completely by surprise.

Bolding and italic mine.

Wait a second. An 'independent' star nation 100 LY from Sol which puts it squarely in the Shell, if not in the Core itself, with a wormhole terminus to boot, and the SL/OFS hasn't got its' hooks in it? Given the conduct out on the Verge with the Protectorates, it seems unlikely that there are any real 'independent' systems that deep into the SL.

Perhaps it's just to small to be noticed (with a wormhole..HA) or it has some behind the back deals with some of the Core Worlds...but it is a puzzlement, at least for me.

An anomaly, anyway. Perhaps it was close enough to Core Worlds to have been friendly to the League - specifically, to powerful Core Worlds - that OFS playing its usual heavy-handedness there would be too visible to Core Worlds populations. It wouldn't be behind-the-back deals so much as too hard to hide mischief there where people would actually see and care. Think Switzerland in terms of European politics, if the EU was inclined to spread in slow, underhanded fashion on the periphery while playing the hero to its own voters. Switzerland is too close and too familiar to treat that way without exposure.

As for the second, eight DD's (and not all can be Rolands--there were 46 built pre-1st Manticore per HoS, and even with the python lump, there are still limited numbers of Rolands out there) and a CLAC (along with missile pods dropped off by the Ammo ship) holding a wormhole within a 12-day dispatch boat ride to Sol stikes me as...risky. And with the possibility that a SLN base may be even closer than that in one of the Core Worlds makes it even more risky. Yes, Commodore Magellan notes that there are more and stronger forces heading that way, but until they get there, if I was in command of those 8 tincans (call them 2 Rolands, 4 Culverins, and 2 Chansons) and the CLAC, I would be watching the hyper limit with some modest concern.

It does look as though there was some concern there, but needs must when the devil drives. There are a lot of wormhole junctions and bridges to occupy and more forces coming through, so you can't spare too much there and there are reinforcements and reserves both on the way anyway and close at hand by wormhole transit.

And if you can hold a spot like that with 8 "light cruisers" and 1 "waller" (by SLN standards) that close to Sol, it's a provocation that will continue to degrade public confidence in the League. With the pods and the hundred LAC's - effectively, another hundred STL tincans - you surely can, barring a truly horrendous counter-attack.

Not major nitpicks, I grant you, but as another poster said, we've got a year until the next book and we need soemthing(s) to discuss. So I offer this, and hope you can ease the stress on my troubled brow....

There you go. I truly doubt that the League is capable of moving quickly enough to snap out an effective counter-attack in the teeth of that many Shrike grasers (which they still have not felt) to cause a result that's not worse for them than for Manticore, or Roulette.

David has said several times that not every system inside the nominal boundaries of the League is actually a member of the League.

It's not that big a mystery. We aren't talking about the Verge here. Not every system in the Core and Shell voted to join the League. Most of those systems are old systems, colonized early, and comparable to other nearby systems which did join the League. OFS has no authority over them. And if OFS did try to do something on those systems, it would be obvious to all their neighbors. OFS and FF get away with what they do because it happens far away from the Core and the Shell.

I agree with Jeff.
The worlds closest to the "original League" which may
have been settled before the SL was established,
would be well known within the SL, have many friends,
and so would be more difficult to "collect" than worlds
way out in the Verge that no Sollie has ever seen or
heard about.
Especially since OFS had not been Imperialist, much less
toxic, when it was founded. Thus we might find it likely
that some systems are too old and too close to be targets
of the OFS.

Also, the RMN's nine-ship Roulette garrison has support
very nearby, at the Limbo side of the wormhole.
Either force can join the other *promptly!*

HTM

JeffEngel wrote:below.

(Hutch had quoted from ART):
Given that Roulette was little more than a hundred light-years from the Sol System itself,

[snip Hutch's post - htm]

An anomaly, anyway. Perhaps it was close enough to Core Worlds to have been friendly to the League - specifically, to powerful Core Worlds - that OFS playing its usual heavy-handedness there would be too visible to Core Worlds populations. It wouldn't be behind-the-back deals so much as too hard to hide mischief there where people would actually see and care. Think Switzerland in terms of European politics, if the EU was inclined to spread in slow, underhanded fashion on the periphery while playing the hero to its own voters. Switzerland is too close and too familiar to treat that way without exposure.
[snip - htm]
It does look as though there was some concern there, but needs must when the devil drives. There are a lot of wormhole junctions and bridges to occupy and more forces coming through, so you can't spare too much there and there are reinforcements and reserves both on the way anyway and close at hand by wormhole transit.

And if you can hold a spot like that with 8 "light cruisers" and 1 "waller" (by SLN standards) that close to Sol, it's a provocation that will continue to degrade public confidence in the League. With the pods and the hundred LAC's - effectively, another hundred STL tincans - you surely can, barring a truly horrendous counter-attack.

[snip - htm]

There you go. I truly doubt that the League is capable of moving quickly enough to snap out an effective counter-attack in the teeth of that many Shrike grasers (which they still have not felt) to cause a result that's not worse for them than for Manticore, or Roulette.[/quote]

Hutch wrote:...because I was re-reading it this weekend and this has been bothering me...(and no, it's not the ridiculous number of missile pods or the too-low SLN casualties at 2nd Manticore (I've already grumped about those).

<snip>
As for the second, eight DD's (and not all can be Rolands--there were 46 built pre-1st Manticore per HoS, and even with the python lump, there are still limited numbers of Rolands out there) and a CLAC (along with missile pods dropped off by the Ammo ship) holding a wormhole within a 12-day dispatch boat ride to Sol stikes me as...risky. And with the possibility that a SLN base may be even closer than that in one of the Core Worlds makes it even more risky. Yes, Commodore Magellan notes that there are more and stronger forces heading that way, but until they get there, if I was in command of those 8 tincans (call them 2 Rolands, 4 Culverins, and 2 Chansons) and the CLAC, I would be watching the hyper limit with some modest concern.

<snip>

There were 46 Rolands on May 1st, 1921. There were 0 in 1919. Most likely the 1st Roland was not laid down until after Thunderbolt and the politics of the penny pinching Janachek leadership ended. So between September 1919 and May 1st, 1921, the plans were dusted off, the lines were prototyped and 46 Rolands were completed - not bad for 21 months

In March 1922, We got to see 3 Rolands fitting out when a GT disembowled them in OB. We have roughly 9 months more construction between HoS and Oyster Bay.

So How Rolands many were under construction on May 1st 1921? - Remember, HOS only includes COMPLETED ships added to the RMN inventory, not even GrendlesBane's 98% completed fleet was included in those #s.

My numbers have a Roland taking around 6 months to complete, so my money is on an additional 75-100 Rolands being completed in those 9 months, with dozens, if not scores, lost partially completed in the strike.

The big question is what was given priority when. We know the Kammerling was being bumped in the late 1921/1922 builds, with the earliest build completion in the mid 1923 region. Were these slips used for SAG Cs, Avalons or Rolands? The Avalon clearly is not the warfighter, it's the pirate buster, so was it's build space in 1922 partially shifted over to the Rolands?

My money has Roland production ramping up (as well as Sag-C), with the intention to build 100s of each in 1922.

We know those plans were never completed, but many more Rolands and Sag-Cs were available to block Wormholes than HoS allows for.

Theemile wrote:The big question is what was given priority when. We know the Kammerling was being bumped in the late 1921/1922 builds, with the earliest build completion in the mid 1923 region. Were these slips used for SAG Cs, Avalons or Rolands? The Avalon clearly is not the warfighter, it's the pirate buster, so was it's build space in 1922 partially shifted over to the Rolands?

I believe - would have to double-check to be certain - that the Kamerling slips would otherwise be used for Saganami-C's. Granted, I suppose they could be used for Rolands as well, but the default assumption I would make is that when you ease off building Kamerlings, Saganami-C's are the disproportionate winner in terms of where the production goes.

I'd also guess that Avalon production being eased down would mostly mean Roland production being jacked up - unless they're ready for or making ready for the next generation of DD/CL instead of either of them.

Hutch wrote:I would be watching the hyper limit with some modest concern.

No you won't. The WH is far outside the hyperlimit. You can drop out of hyper pretty much right on top of the WH.

JeffEngel wrote:

Theemile wrote:The big question is what was given priority when. We know the Kammerling was being bumped in the late 1921/1922 builds, with the earliest build completion in the mid 1923 region. Were these slips used for SAG Cs, Avalons or Rolands? The Avalon clearly is not the warfighter, it's the pirate buster, so was it's build space in 1922 partially shifted over to the Rolands?

I believe - would have to double-check to be certain - that the Kamerling slips would otherwise be used for Saganami-C's. Granted, I suppose they could be used for Rolands as well, but the default assumption I would make is that when you ease off building Kamerlings, Saganami-C's are the disproportionate winner in terms of where the production goes.

I'd also guess that Avalon production being eased down would mostly mean Roland production being jacked up - unless they're ready for or making ready for the next generation of DD/CL instead of either of them.

I'd give Sag-C's a bigger proportion than Rolands of freed up slots that could handle both as well. The Sag-C is just that much better than a Roland, in most circumstances. Rolands would get all the slots that can't handle anything bigger without upgrades.

The Rolands aren't going to be that much stealthier than a Sag-C and a Sag-C is going to carry a lot more recon drones, so for scouting/reconnaissance purposes, whatever stealth advantages a Roland has are made less relevant by the Sag-C carrying more recon drones.

kzt wrote:

Hutch wrote:I would be watching the hyper limit with some modest concern.

No you won't. The WH is far outside the hyperlimit. You can drop out of hyper pretty much right on top of the WH.

If your navigator is good enough. If not, you might have a repeat of the Icarus Raid on Basilisk - dropping out of hyper headed away from the wormhole instead of towards it. Or you drop out too far, allowing the defenders time to react.

I'm doubtful about the SLN's ability to drop forces right on top of a wormhole terminus. I would expect the most attempts would probably drop short.

Mix in that probably half the Manticoran ships are lying in stealth at any given time, and successfully ambushing a Laocoon 2 picket force seems difficult. It's also possible that the Laocoon 2 pickets would park somebody in hyper to wait for just such an attempt.

JeffEngel wrote:

Theemile wrote:The big question is what was given priority when. We know the Kammerling was being bumped in the late 1921/1922 builds, with the earliest build completion in the mid 1923 region. Were these slips used for SAG Cs, Avalons or Rolands? The Avalon clearly is not the warfighter, it's the pirate buster, so was it's build space in 1922 partially shifted over to the Rolands?

I believe - would have to double-check to be certain - that the Kamerling slips would otherwise be used for Saganami-C's. Granted, I suppose they could be used for Rolands as well, but the default assumption I would make is that when you ease off building Kamerlings, Saganami-C's are the disproportionate winner in terms of where the production goes.

I'd also guess that Avalon production being eased down would mostly mean Roland production being jacked up - unless they're ready for or making ready for the next generation of DD/CL instead of either of them.

Don't forget we saw 3 Rolands in a midsized slip that could have fit a Sag-C. So we know SOME construction was a move favorable to Roland production over Sag-C (and at a 3:1 ratio to boot!).

Personally, I see Sag-Cs are the jack of all trades on a budget right now, So I applaud the building of as many of them as possible. But if you can build 3x the number of Rolands in the same space and have 2 build cycles for every Sag-C, trading a single squadron of Sag-Cs (out of a dozen or so squadrons) for 6 squadrons of Rolands isn't a bad trade.

kzt wrote:

Hutch wrote:I would be watching the hyper limit with some modest concern.

No you won't. The WH is far outside the hyperlimit. You can drop out of hyper pretty much right on top of the WH.

That is probably the best way for the SLN to hurt the grand aliance at the moment, drop a squadron (or even a division) on the wall out of hyper on top of one of the lacoon pickets, the Sagnami C's and Rollands will fight hard I am sure however even solly wallers will swat them like flies if they drop out of hyper within a 5,000,000 kilometers and if the manticorian ships run for it you can still transit the no longer secure wormhole and ambush the unsuspecting ships on the other side of the terminus, it will not end the GA but you could at least have a few victories to claim. And even if your astrogation is not good enough, you have lots of ships and can leave a few dozen in an out of the way star system for practice.