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GOD EXISTS

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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by MAD-4A   » Tue Apr 14, 2015 11:57 am

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The E wrote:So because the actions by the followers of other religions (and thus other moral frameworks) are wrong in your moral framework, their moral framework is unquestionably wrong?
All viable religions must have certain moral criteria in order to be viable. If a religion has as its moral framework to “go ahead & murder your neighbor and take his stuff” then it isn’t viable. Yet is it possible to have “don’t murder your neighbor and take his stuff, but you can go to the next tribe, murder people there and take their stuff”. Many of the North American Indian tribes, like the Comanche, Apache and Blackfoot had this. The ancient Romans had “don’t cheat on your wife, don’t steal from your neighbors, etc…” You can also have too restricted morals to be viable. Some protestant Christian denominations had as their moral doctrine “ALL sex is evil and a sin, so NO sex ever.” These sects died off, literally. You can tell the overall morality of a religion by the teachings. Those who follow the actual teaching show the morality of the religion. The Romans didn’t tolerate cheating on a spouse but it was fine to murder people of another religion or throw people you disagree with to lions, not a moral religion.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by MAD-4A   » Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:20 am

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Hutch wrote:...but I am a firm A-religionist and this sums up my position about as well as it can be said.
I myself am A-religious. I believe human religious institutes are just that – human – and inherently greedy and corrupt.
Daryl wrote: … I believe that I have a reputation as a good person and a straight shooter, and that came from within not from anyone else's compulsion. I follow the excellent creed of "Do unto others etc..." not because of the church, but in spite of it, as I saw very little of that.
That is from the church, or at-least the bible. So you did get your morality from the church.
HB of CJ wrote:…Physical, measurable, repeatable, (empirical) scientific proof is needed…. I will take most of the above as faith and not fact.
Not everything can be proved. String theory can’t be proven, even relativity is still a "theory". Some things have to be taken through faith alone. But I have had actual proof. You may say I’m a loon but he spoke to me, I heard him (or perhaps an Angel, I’m not sure which) but the voice was there & speaking directly to me. I was driving alone down the highway. Heading home (I worked nights then and it was the afternoon on my day off) I heard a clear voice in the seat behind me. It was no dream or imagined voice. I heard a real voice as clear as anyone I’ve ever heard. It startled me ‘cause I was alone in the car & it was right there. I spun around and no one was there. It had said “your asleep.” As I swung back forward I was heading straight towards a concrete bridge support at 60mph. That was when I realized, I had fallen asleep and was dreaming that I was diving right as I was, the same car, the same road. Dreaming I was doing exactly what I was doing. I had no Idea I was asleep and dreaming until that voice spoke and woke me up. Yea there will be those who think I just dreamt the voice but they didn’t hear it – it was 100% real & external. I heard it from the back seat not my head & not next to my ear. it was a physical voice vibrating my eardrum.
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Almost only counts in Horseshoes and Nuclear Weapons. I almost got the Hand-Grenade out the window does not count.
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by Annachie   » Wed Apr 22, 2015 5:28 pm

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Do unto others pre-dates the bible by a long way.

I had a friend that was driving home from a concert they had attended. It was really late, or perhaps we should say really early. also at around 6mph. (Knowing him likely faster). He distinctly remembers Road Runner running along side the car telling him to wake up and pull over.
Does that make Road Runner just as real?
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by The E   » Thu Apr 23, 2015 3:00 am

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MAD-4A wrote:Not everything can be proved. String theory can’t be proven, even relativity is still a "theory".


Oh good, the "still a theory" bullshit. Never mind that relativity makes testable predictions. Never mind that these predictions have been tested over and over again (each and every day, as a matter of fact). Juuust a theory. Could be proven wrong any second now, just like Newton's laws were (Except, of course, they weren't).

As for string theory, sure, it can't be proven now. Turns out that we can't build instruments that can handle the power levels required to probe at the scales string theory supposedly operates on. Doesn't mean that it can never happen.

Some things have to be taken through faith alone. But I have had actual proof. You may say I’m a loon but he spoke to me, I heard him (or perhaps an Angel, I’m not sure which) but the voice was there & speaking directly to me. I was driving alone down the highway. Heading home (I worked nights then and it was the afternoon on my day off) I heard a clear voice in the seat behind me. It was no dream or imagined voice. I heard a real voice as clear as anyone I’ve ever heard. It startled me ‘cause I was alone in the car & it was right there. I spun around and no one was there. It had said “your asleep.” As I swung back forward I was heading straight towards a concrete bridge support at 60mph. That was when I realized, I had fallen asleep and was dreaming that I was diving right as I was, the same car, the same road. Dreaming I was doing exactly what I was doing. I had no Idea I was asleep and dreaming until that voice spoke and woke me up. Yea there will be those who think I just dreamt the voice but they didn’t hear it – it was 100% real & external. I heard it from the back seat not my head & not next to my ear. it was a physical voice vibrating my eardrum.


And you know this because....?

I'm not doubting that you experienced that. What I am doubting is that it was divine influence. I mean, just on a theological level, that just raises so many questions; What made you special enough that god himself (or one of his agents) personally intervened in your life? Not just in a roundabout way, but directly? If you aren't special, why aren't there dozens or hundreds of these instances recorded every day?
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by Tenshinai   » Sat Apr 25, 2015 2:59 am

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MAD-4A wrote:Improbable is not impossible, statistically, in an open and infinite Omniverse, if it is not 100% impossible for something to exist, then statistically, it MUST exist somewhere, as there is an infinite number of tries for it to exist. Therefore God MUST exist. Stephen Hawking claimed, he doesn’t, stating that as you travel backwards toward the Big Bang, time slows down, until at the moment of the Big Bang time stops. Therefore (he claims) there is no Time for God to exist in. This of course is false, as it assumes that God is restricted to our perception of Time, which the Bible clearly states, he is NOT. It dose means that there is no time in which Big Bang could occur. So, by his calculation, the universe could NOT exist. Therefore the ONLY way the universe could exist is for there to be something existing outside our universe & perception of time, to cause it. So God must exist.


That has got to the most failed logic per length of text i have ever seen.
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by Michael Everett   » Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:13 pm

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MAD-4A wrote:Improbable is not impossible, statistically, in an open and infinite Omniverse, if it is not 100% impossible for something to exist, then statistically, it MUST exist somewhere, as there is an infinite number of tries for it to exist. Therefore God MUST exist. Stephen Hawking claimed, he doesn’t, stating that as you travel backwards toward the Big Bang, time slows down, until at the moment of the Big Bang time stops. Therefore (he claims) there is no Time for God to exist in. This of course is false, as it assumes that God is restricted to our perception of Time, which the Bible clearly states, he is NOT. It does means that there is no time in which Big Bang could occur. So, by his calculation, the universe could NOT exist. Therefore the ONLY way the universe could exist is for there to be something existing outside our universe & perception of time, to cause it. So God must exist.


I think I counted five non-intersecting assumptions and at least three logical disconnects.

May I suggest reading the following documents...
1) Logical Fallacies and You, Part 2, Part 3
2) Let's talk about Bull****

Optional reading for anyone interested (Sense of humour vital) -
10 Things Every Fringe Group Has In Common
On Internet Tough Guys
20 Rules Of Being An Internet Activist
My T-shirt Says I'm Unique
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I can't write anywhere near as well as Weber
But I try nonetheless, And even do my own artwork.

(Now on Twitter)and mentioned by RFC!
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by Spacekiwi   » Mon Apr 27, 2015 4:45 am

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Well, if that particular version of multiverse theory is true, then it may well be possible for a god like being to exist, but unfortunatley for him, this would require his god to be constrained to the universe(s) he is in, rendering the being not omni-potent/present/escent, rendeirng it not a god...... So a god that is not a god....... :)




Tenshinai wrote:That has got to the most failed logic per length of text i have ever seen.
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by Daryl   » Mon Apr 27, 2015 6:56 am

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Basically the argument all hangs on -"This of course is false, as it assumes that God is restricted to our perception of Time, which the Bible clearly states, he is NOT".
Sorry, but you can't use what your particular religious text says as proof of anything. You are certainly entitled to believe that it is the word of god, but personal belief has no weight in a logical discussion.
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by PeterZ   » Mon Apr 27, 2015 12:08 pm

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Daryl wrote:Basically the argument all hangs on -"This of course is false, as it assumes that God is restricted to our perception of Time, which the Bible clearly states, he is NOT".
Sorry, but you can't use what your particular religious text says as proof of anything. You are certainly entitled to believe that it is the word of god, but personal belief has no weight in a logical discussion.


Not so, Daryl. MAD-4A's argument asserts that the assumption that God must exist within Time is just that an assumption. He is not offering the Bible as proof that God exists beyond time, only that the Christian view assumes He is beyond time.

His logic asserts that to believe that there is a point in the Big Bang that time does not exist is to say that the Big Bang cannot happen because time does not exist for the events to unfold in. That logical argument does not require the belief in God.

I would add that some process must be able to function in the absence of time for Hawking's time line to be correct, some thing or process that transcends time. Something must have changed before time began to enable time to commence. The transition from time-does-not-exist to time-as-we-understand-it must have begun in the absence of time. Hawking's own argument supports the Christian view of God rather than proving His absence.

After all the Judeo-Christian God might be described as a process that transcends time.
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Re: GOD EXISTS
Post by DDHvi   » Fri May 01, 2015 8:08 am

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I'm going to wander a bit, but will return to the subject.

Some time ago, the conclusion was made that one reason old age is called a second childhood is that one sleeps like a baby. That is, often awake in the night and needing naps in the daytime. My wife may nickname me bookworm, but I can't spend THAT much time reading. (Don't tell her, she might be :shock: ed.)

Now, for decades, it has been a hobby of mine to look at ways to test things.


Earlier in this thread is a mention of findin Ivan Panin's work. He stated there were numeric patterns in the original languages of the New Testament (Greek) and Old Testament (Hebrew and a bit of Chaldean) but not in the Apocrypha or anywhere else he examined. This pattern was complicated enough and consistent enough to allow determining the exact original text by finding which variations fit said numeric patterns.

Five decades ago, it seemed that such a claim should certainly be tested. With an available free day, I got a Westcott and Hort Koine Greek New Testament and ran a cursory check, getting results that boiled down to: The probability of chance in this is low enough to be worth further work. But this would take a lot of time.


While looking for something to do at night, it seemed that devising and using a non-cursory set of tests would fill much time. And retirement produces a lot of time. It makes a hobby like a combination of stamp collecting and jigsaw puzzles work.

On line resources make such checking easier.

The Book Society of Canada Limited (Agincourt, Ontario) has an on - line reprint of Panin's Numeric Greek New Testament.

http://www.ubm1.org/?page=science

has a short discussion of some of the postulated numeric patterns.

So far, there has only been time to check out ten of these, from the Matthew 1:1-11 passage, each of which has the "multiple of seven" (Heptadic, if you want the technical term) pattern.


The rest of this discusses method, anyone not interested can skip it.


Some resources were borrowed from the pastor.

A passage is printed out from the on line numeric Greek New Testament. This is divided into subsections to make double checking and counting easier. Scissors and paste provide a list of words. When a word has multiple forms, all forms in that subsection are cut and pasted at the first appearance. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance (with dictionary and reference numbers) is used to check each word to prevent incorrect multiples. Below each word or form, a count of occurrences for each subsection is penciled in as X,Y,Z.

Columns on the right are inked in: the first is the Strong's reference #, the second the penciled incremental count of different Greek words, the rest are columns to provide a incremental count for each other checked pattern.

Double and triple check: not only is a miscount easy, but a consistent pattern is not always the same as an obvious one. This is why incremental counts are done in pencil.


For example, the first passage, Matthew 1:1-11 was divided into three subsections.

Covering several obvious things:
Total word count is 7*7.
Those beginning with consonants are 3*7, vowels 4*7. Multiple forms either begin with consonants or vowels, not both.

A check thought up on my own:
Those ending with consonants are 5*7, vowels 2*7. For this check, some form variants have one form end in a consonant, the other in a vowel. Using the first form that appears provides this result.


I'm not going bore you with the other five checked. My night waking hours now have something to fill them :!: And it isn't even too boring, (when worked at in short stretches ;) ).


Panin challenged anyone to either find a text or make up a fictional text which: 1)had a meaningful narrative; and 2)also had a like numeric pattern. To encourage tries, he publicly posted a reward for anyone who succeeded. NO ONE did such.


Anyone looking on line at this should be aware that there are at least two groups talking numerics which are not using Panin's patterns for their work. One of them has a method which is known to produce false positives.


My probability math is rusty enough that I can not calculate odds for something this complicated. The scholar produced Greek New Testament I'm comparing to Panin's is letter for letter identical in verses 1-11, which the earlier Westcott and Hort is not. A quick check of verses 12-17 shows one variant form (3 times), and two variant spellings (2 times each). W & H also has more variances here. There is no change in meaning that I can recognize.

There is no numeric established Old Testament - Panin worked for forty years just to get the NT done.


BTW, I expect some to reject the whole idea out of hand. What I wonder is how many of these will even try a cursory test :?: :shock: :lol:
Douglas Hvistendahl
Retired technical nerd
ddhviste@drtel.net

Dumb mistakes are very irritating.
Smart mistakes go on forever
Unless you test your assumptions!
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