The Temple—How might it be taken?

Hi McGuiness,

I think that the primary difference in our pov is that I'm not overly concerned about public opinion in TL lands, at least. I do agree that the reaction you describe is possible. But even more importantly, what the capture of the Temple does is tell everybody that the COGA has lost in terms that no one can possibly miss. It's called reality therapy. The Jihad begun in God's name has failed. And despite all of the COGA assertion that it was representing God, God either didn't care how it turned out or he was busily helping the other side.

Then have public trials in which Nynians evidence and the atrocities of the SOS are trotted out with the consistent theme that, as it is said in the Bible, judgement begins with the house of God. Nobody gets to hide their crimes behind a cassock or vicar's robe. Expose what brought down the judgement on the COGA...what was going on inside the Temple itself and then ask if any of that was really representing God.

Don

McGuiness wrote:

As far as we know, the passage in the Writ ordering everyone to make a pilgrimage to the Temple hasn't been rescinded.

And since there is a war on- lots of the faithful will be coming.

sorry, no biscuit.
damn-wanted a biscuit!!

I do think that it will occur to Maigwair that an attack on the temple is possible. More and more military units will begin to arrive in Zion-regardless of our favorite Grand Inquisitor's efforts to secure Zion exclusively with troops loyal to the inquisition. Mairgair will bolster early warning systems. In addition, I assume that Maigwair will consider your plan as the most logical way to accomplish an attack. And he will take precautions.
Unintended consequences: Once he loses complete control of Zion, paranoia may cause Mr. Clyntahn to act precipitously against perceived threats from the other members of the GoF. (In his own mind he has some cause: Vicar Duchairn is more worried about marks than winning the war. Vicar Maigwair is an obvious incompetent, trusted inquisitors would do a better job, etc. etc.)
For the Church, on many fronts, things are:
"bleek".

McGuiness wrote:

Annachie wrote:Silly boy. The temple doesn't get "taken". A new Vicar gets elected after the untimely death of the old one by natural causes (poisoned counts as natural causes right?)
The new Vicar then denounces the old Inquisitor and has him arrested and tried. Oh, he didn't survive the arrest? Pity about that.

Then the new Vicar calls off the Shan-Wei inspired Jihad and yadda yadda.

It might work if the new Grand Vicar of whom you speak wore antiballistic undies and an antiballistic cassock, and his contact lenses could scan for poisons! Being really good with a pistol would come in handy as well...

McGuiness, Annachie's version is the press release, your long version is what actually happens. Doh!

Don, from a PR point of view the Church cannot possibly be engaged in 'a desperate struggle for survival', it is prosecuting a 'fully justified Jihad against heretics' so God and the archangels guarantee its victory, despite any temporary successes the forces of darkness might have. That being the case, and the devotion of the faithful being particularly in need of boosting, I do believe that the Temple is open as usual for pilgrims from those vast swathes of Safehold where they don't have to travel through a war zone to get there. Since it is a religious war there may even be more pilgrims than usual from those places.

tootall wrote:McGuiness wrote:

As far as we know, the passage in the Writ ordering everyone to make a pilgrimage to the Temple hasn't been rescinded.

And since there is a war on- lots of the faithful will be coming.

sorry, no biscuit.
damn-wanted a biscuit!!

I do think that it will occur to Maigwair that an attack on the temple is possible. More and more military units will begin to arrive in Zion-regardless of our favorite Grand Inquisitor's efforts to secure Zion exclusively with troops loyal to the inquisition. Mairgair will bolster early warning systems. In addition, I assume that Maigwair will consider your plan as the most logical way to accomplish an attack. And he will take precautions.
Unintended consequences: Once he loses complete control of Zion, paranoia may cause Mr. Clyntahn to act precipitously against perceived threats from the other members of the GoF. (In his own mind he has some cause: Vicar Duchairn is more worried about marks than winning the war. Vicar Maigwair is an obvious incompetent, trusted inquisitors would do a better job, etc. etc.)
For the Church, on many fronts, things are:
"bleek".

I suspect the last part of your post is right but the first part is hopelessly optimistic about what Clyntahn will put up with. IMHO the day that his spies tell him Maigwair is trying to move regular troops into the Zion area is the day the Captain General gets arrested for his 'depraved paedophile crimes'. While he is being Questioned about those, the way he has been betraying the trust of his men by subtly undermining the war effort from the beginning will, no doubt, also come to light.

Randomiser wrote:

tootall wrote:McGuiness wrote:

As far as we know, the passage in the Writ ordering everyone to make a pilgrimage to the Temple hasn't been rescinded.

And since there is a war on- lots of the faithful will be coming.

sorry, no biscuit.
damn-wanted a biscuit!!

I do think that it will occur to Maigwair that an attack on the temple is possible. More and more military units will begin to arrive in Zion-regardless of our favorite Grand Inquisitor's efforts to secure Zion exclusively with troops loyal to the inquisition. Mairgair will bolster early warning systems. In addition, I assume that Maigwair will consider your plan as the most logical way to accomplish an attack. And he will take precautions.
Unintended consequences: Once he loses complete control of Zion, paranoia may cause Mr. Clyntahn to act precipitously against perceived threats from the other members of the GoF. (In his own mind he has some cause: Vicar Duchairn is more worried about marks than winning the war. Vicar Maigwair is an obvious incompetent, trusted inquisitors would do a better job, etc. etc.)
For the Church, on many fronts, things are:
"bleek".

I suspect the last part of your post is right but the first part is hopelessly optimistic about what Clyntahn will put up with. IMHO the day that his spies tell him Maigwair is trying to move regular troops into the Zion area is the day the Captain General gets arrested for his 'depraved paedophile crimes'. While he is being Questioned about those, the way he has been betraying the trust of his men by subtly undermining the war effort from the beginning will, no doubt, also come to light.

Hi Randomizer,

Dunno. You might be right. But consider. How much surplus money is floating in mainland economy these days, probably not a lot extra especially for travel with the Temple boosting the tithe to finance the war. Along with that the more prosperous part of Safehold is behind enemy lines now. Or think about the possibility of waking up some fine morning to find that the press gangs have gone through and you are a conscript in somebody's army.

Then too, remember that the trip to the Temple was never something all Safeholdens managed even before the war.

I'm very skeptical of the notion of hordes of pilgrims even if your idea about pr from the church's pov is right. Too many things working against it.

Don

I suppose my point, in as far as I ever have one, is that the temple will fall to internal struggle, not external conquest.

Annachie wrote:I suppose my point, in as far as I ever have one, is that the temple will fall to internal struggle, not external conquest.

Maybe. That is certainly a strong possibility. However to replace one faction of the COGA with another doesn't neccessarily open it up to the allies.

But to take your thought and see where it goes, I imagine it's possible that as a part of that internal struggle one could visualize one faction secretly opening up the doors to the allies or providing passworeds and override codes. Another thought might involve Nynian and her people with those contacts in the Temple....

Dunno...but you've certainly offered a serious alternative.

Don

How to take the Temple:

Step one: invade the Temple Lands themselves with a sizable army, enough to both garrison the major population centers and keep a large, mobile force in the field.

Step two: take control of the road and canal network (secure your own supply and reinforcement routes, and interdict the enemy's). Send a few ironclads to Hsing-Wu's Passage for good measure.

Step three: wait for winter.

Step four: PROFIT!!!

Seriously, though. Zion is arguably the largest city in the face of Safehold, but it's also situated in one of the most unhospitable places in the planet, meaning that its supply requirements in general are overwhelmingly dependent on importing things like food, coal, etc. I suspect that "besieging" the city will be a simple matter of allowing a single winter to empty its granaries, and then wait a bit for your chance, when the inevitable revolt takes place. I mean, do you seriously think that when food starts getting scarce, the vicarate and senior clergy will cut back on its feed? Nope, the cutbacks will fall squarely on the citizens and the poor. I'm thinking of the days shortly before the French Revolution, kings and nobles feasting on Versailles, while the common people scrounged for bread.

Thoughts, anyone?

peke wrote:How to take the Temple:

Step one: invade the Temple Lands themselves with a sizable army, enough to both garrison the major population centers and keep a large, mobile force in the field.

Step two: take control of the road and canal network (secure your own supply and reinforcement routes, and interdict the enemy's). Send a few ironclads to Hsing-Wu's Passage for good measure.

Step three: wait for winter.

Step four: PROFIT!!!

Seriously, though. Zion is arguably the largest city in the face of Safehold, but it's also situated in one of the most unhospitable places in the planet, meaning that its supply requirements in general are overwhelmingly dependent on importing things like food, coal, etc. I suspect that "besieging" the city will be a simple matter of allowing a single winter to empty its granaries, and then wait a bit for your chance, when the inevitable revolt takes place. I mean, do you seriously think that when food starts getting scarce, the vicarate and senior clergy will cut back on its feed? Nope, the cutbacks will fall squarely on the citizens and the poor. I'm thinking of the days shortly before the French Revolution, kings and nobles feasting on Versailles, while the common people scrounged for bread.

Thoughts, anyone?

First thought is that (1) and (2) are daunting. It's almost like putting "and then a miracle happens" as the first step in a proposed process instead of toward the end as a punchline.

But yes, if you can pull that off, Zion is going to get very cold and very hungry. Still, the Temple could get some relief so long as it can keep a hold of the food stocks, push out the people it does not need to keep in, and stay inside the Temple itself as much as possible for angelic heating.

I think if you could occupy the Temple Lands and control their communications that well, you would have the troops and supplies for a close siege of Zion or even an occupation of it. And you'd almost have to maintain a close siege anyway to keep a trickle of supplies from getting in anyway to maintain the core presence keeping the Temple. Certainly if you can more-or-less control the remainder of the Temple Lands, the close siege of Zion will have less work to do and won't have to worry about being besieged itself. But that's a lot like saying that if you're fabulously rich, you don't have to worry about affording lunch.