The Temple—How might it be taken?

I suspect that a lot of us who are starting to look to the end of the current war on Safehold are starting to think about taking control of the temple. I know I have been. The first question that we have to answer is, is it doable? If so, how?

My own answer is probably, but I am not really sure what the best way to proceed would be. We are talking about a structure here that is dug in like a planetary defense bunker. Previous discussions of the structure has suggested that the outer walls of the thing completely impervious to anything that current tech on Safehold could possibly penetrate.

Merlin could probably develop a missile with a warhead to take it down, but he has more or less dismissed the idea because anything powerful enough to penetrate the Temple would more or less flatten the city of Zion as a whole, which for moral reasons he refuses to do. There might be an answer here in that if Allied forces take control of the city surrounding the Temple, which would be a doable thing, then the city could be evacuated. Then perhaps it becomes doable to take out the Temple with something that Merlin could come up with.

But that is not a good answer either, since to do that would also be to wipe out anything that might be in the basement. Based on both textev and comment by RFC, it is clear that the hope is that whatever is in the basement might include a computer capable of shutting down the OBS. If you blow that up, you’re pretty well stuck with the current situation with the OBS, whatever that might be, without any known way of influencing its behavior or taking it down.

Then there are other issues here. Once you get inside those outer walls, what have you gained? One would almost have to presume that as paranoid as the Archangels must have been after Kauyung’s strike, the place would be loaded with sensors to discern almost anything that could be construed as a threat, along with possible countermeasures to deal with the threat. I would personally believe that gunpowder itself would have to be included in that since I doubt that the proscriptions really allow for that.

Then there is the question of walls. Within the Temple are walls all over the place. At least some of those walls will be blastproof, perhaps as tough as the outer shell simply as a precaution against another Kauyung walking in with another vest pocket nuke so that if the area where the thing was detonated was destroyed, the rest of it would be untouched. Then there are doors undoubtedly as tough as the walls that open and shut electronically and are more than likely set up to react to an optical scan. So what do you do with that?

Finally there is the question of whether or not the Temple can withstand a siege. If one were to surround the walls and wait, how long would it take to starve the denizens of the Temple out? Would they have a food source within the Temple or are they dependent on the outside? Are there tunnels? If you successfully starved the place out would you even know? Or would this be a reprise of the corpses the Romans found when they finally penetrated Masada?

Then, as has been noted in another thread, there is the question about how the population of Zion would be reacting to all of this. Would they be hostile or friendly? Would allied forces be heralded as liberators or lamented as oppressors?

This is getting too long. So ‘nuff for now… Opine away!

Don

Hi Don,

While a siege would work, since there's no indication the food is grown inside the temple, the amount stored being the main question.

However I suspect a speedy penetration is more likely, and between Nynian and Paityr I suspect alternate entrances or accesses are available to any 'storming' party, though the inner circle would probably prefer the vicarate not know they'd come and left until after they had.

It might require some accommodation with Rhobair or another vicar if some of those entrances require current ID's or passwords he can provide, then the questions become how much can they trust him and with what.

It's been suggested that ICN marines or scout snipers disguised as pilgrims could take a tour before securing the entrances, but why not as fake temple guards so they'd already have weapons?

If the vicarate if not the temple guard are personally carrying revolvers by then, so could they; if the temple sensors permit them, but only RFC knows if the sensors can be tweaked by the current temple population to permit gunpowder weapons [which I doubt], and if so, will they then twig on the new smokeless propellants the pilgrims might be carrying?

I strongly doubt anyone currently in the temple knows how to adjust the sensors or scanners that finely if at all which assumes the sensors or the computer monitoring them recognizes gunpowder as a threat.

Otherwise they might have to rely on things like pneumatic pistols requiring special high pressure air flasks [or CO2 cartridges], which I think are well within Howsmyn's steel works current capabilities, and not considered a threat since the late 18th century Austrians did it with rifles for part of their army.

While various arbalests are also a possibility, they're kinda awkward to hide under pilgrim robes; hence I prefer fake temple guards for some, given Nynian can get authentication codes, which would work if so many new temple guard units had been moved to Zion recently that personal recognition isn't possible anymore.

What other near silent weapons can posters offer?

I suspect Nahrmahn has OWL already at work on some RFC has dreamed up, any guesses?

How about sleeping gas canisters to put as many as possible asleep?

Granted such gases aren't what the movies or novel claim but suggested to provoke more thinking.

L


[quote="n7axw"]I suspect that a lot of us who are starting to look to the end of the current war on Safehold are starting to think about taking control of the temple. I know I have been. The first question that we have to answer is, is it doable? If so, how?

My own answer is probably, but I am not really sure what the best way to proceed would be. We are talking about a structure here that is dug in like a planetary defense bunker. Previous discussions of the structure has suggested that the outer walls of the thing completely impervious to anything that current tech on Safehold could possibly penetrate.

Merlin could probably develop a missile with a warhead to take it down, but he has more or less dismissed the idea because anything powerful enough to penetrate the Temple would more or less flatten the city of Zion as a whole, which for moral reasons he refuses to do. There might be an answer here in that if Allied forces take control of the city surrounding the Temple, which would be a doable thing, then the city could be evacuated. Then perhaps it becomes doable to take out the Temple with something that Merlin could come up with.

But that is not a good answer either, since to do that would also be to wipe out anything that might be in the basement. Based on both textev and comment by RFC, it is clear that the hope is that whatever is in the basement might include a computer capable of shutting down the OBS. If you blow that up, you’re pretty well stuck with the current situation with the OBS, whatever that might be, without any known way of influencing its behavior or taking it down.

Then there are other issues here. Once you get inside those outer walls, what have you gained? One would almost have to presume that as paranoid as the Archangels must have been after Kauyung’s strike, the place would be loaded with sensors to discern almost anything that could be construed as a threat, along with possible countermeasures to deal with the threat. I would personally believe that gunpowder itself would have to be included in that since I doubt that the proscriptions really allow for that.

Then there is the question of walls. Within the Temple are walls all over the place. At least some of those walls will be blastproof, perhaps as tough as the outer shell simply as a precaution against another Kauyung walking in with another vest pocket nuke so that if the area where the thing was detonated was destroyed, the rest of it would be untouched. Then there are doors undoubtedly as tough as the walls that open and shut electronically and are more than likely set up to react to an optical scan. So what do you do with that?

Finally there is the question of whether or not the Temple can withstand a siege. If one were to surround the walls and wait, how long would it take to starve the denizens of the Temple out? Would they have a food source within the Temple or are they dependent on the outside? Are there tunnels? If you successfully starved the place out would you even know? Or would this be a reprise of the corpses the Romans found when they finally penetrated Masada?

Then, as has been noted in another thread, there is the question about how the population of Zion would be reacting to all of this. Would they be hostile or friendly? Would allied forces be heralded as liberators or lamented as oppressors?

This is getting too long. So ‘nuff for now… Opine away!

Don[/quote]

There are another problems; how would the Charisian react to the idea of attacking not just the Zion but the Temple itself? Probably not very good at all.

The way they church is spending money, Repo man.

n7axw wrote:I suspect that a lot of us who are starting to look to the end of the current war on Safehold are starting to think about taking control of the temple. I know I have been. The first question that we have to answer is, is it doable? If so, how?
<Snip>
Don

This is my longest post ever! And Lyonheart, I started writing it hours ago, so I'm still the first to offer my suggested method for capturing the Temple. If you check, I've suggested it several times before...

Don, You've raised some important points, but as RFC explained somewhere, and better than I'm about to, there are two aspects to seizing the Temple that the EoC must address. First the EoC must create a political climate where seizing the Temple becomes acceptable to the masses, and only then can it successfully seize the most sacred site on the planet and get away with it.

Until the jihad began losing battles in Siddarmark, the Go4 could pass off its defeats at sea as due to incompetent leadership or superior Charisian weapons. Losing the land war in Siddarmark, with hundreds of thousands of CoGA troops becoming casualties or POWs is going to make the jihad increasingly unpopular with the common folk. They're already suffering from the economic collapse brought on by the embargo, and by and large it's their sons, husbands, brothers, and fathers who are dying, wounded, or missing - except for the Desnairans, who just lost a huge portion of their nobility. The higher tithes and taxes on the wealthy are making the jihad unpopular with the rich and the business community. Everyone is beginning to wonder "If God is on our side, why do we keep losing?" This isn't something the Go4 can survive long-term.

Most Safeholdians have no idea of the extent of corruption among the vicarate, although a goodly number must suspect that the wolves are loose among the flock. Posting the dirty laundry Mrs. Dynnys brought to Charis from Aivah would seriously undermine the people's respect for the vicarate. Learning that a bunch of perverts are running the CoGA will change their reaction to an EoC attack on Zion from "The heretics attacked the Temple! Let's get 'em!" to "The EoC finally did something about all those corrupt vicars in the Temple!" The second reaction makes an attack politically acceptable to most of Safehold, while the first (which is what would happen now) would fan the flames of the jihad. OWL needs to start posting broadsheets that expose the corruption of the vicarate immediately, and he needs to reveal the perversions of vicars in their home sees!

Turning to physically capturing the Temple, I've addressed this topic, as have many other people over the years, although I've never seen anyone else suggest the method I recommend. It should be fairly obvious once you read this quote from OAR though: "Neither of them paid much attention to the priests and acolytes around the altar at the center of the circle, celebrating the third of the daily morning masses for the regular flow of pilgrims. Every child of God was required by the Writ to make the journey to the Temple at least once in his life. Obviously, that wasn't actually possible for everyone, and God recognized that, yet enough of His children managed to meet that obligation to keep the cathedral perpetually thronged with worshipers. Except, of course, during the winter months of bitter cold and deep snow."

As far as we know, the passage in the Writ ordering everyone to make a pilgrimage to the Temple hasn't been rescinded. Some of the good guys have noted with amusement that they won't be making their pilgrimage after all, since they wouldn't like the reception they'd receive if they did!

The number of people who actually live within the Temple itself isn't that high - perhaps less than a thousand, certainly less than five thousand, most whom are servants. There are contingents of the Temple Guard who serve there, and may or may not live within the building itself. They have "holy relics" that allow them to open the doors to the vicar's individual suites, which can be locked from the inside, as we saw at the death of the Wylsynn brothers.

Ok, I've tossed out sufficient hints. If you know what I'm about to suggest to capture the Temple, raise your hand. If you've read my suggestions before, pat yourself on the back for having good taste, but sorry, no biscuit.

Which brings us to my "Seize the Temple by Having Soldiers Impersonate Pilgrims Strategy.TM"

Since hundreds of pilgrims, if not thousands make their way into the Temple every day, it would be fairly easy to add a few hundred athletic men to the mix, dressed in the robes of the monastic orders to conceal their weapons, or merely loose clothing if they carried pistols. Throw in several dozen dressed as rubes, amazed at the wonders of the temple and pointing out the miracles within so they look like the usual tourists. Once these athletic "pilgrims" outnumber all other types, they simply pull out their guns and seize the place. Yes, a bunch of Temple Guards will die, but that's no great loss since they have the mental flexibility of a housefly.

Are there scanners that check each person who enters the Temple for gunpowder? That's unlikely, since gunpowder was clearly against the Proscriptions. The Temple itself was built after the War Against the Fallen when it seemed fairly clear that the genie had been stuffed back into the bottle where the use of "God weapons" was concerned, and we have no textev that gunpowder was used in that war, or that it was present on Safehold prior to its introduction in Harchong of all places a couple of centuries ago. Since the archangels never anticipated that gunpowder would be developed and approved, the Temple is unlikely to scan for it - if it scans for anything at all.

Once several hundred ICA commandos have infiltrated the temple and killed or captured the guards, they need to bar all the doors. The archangels clearly built the Temple to withstand any siege, so all the "visible" outside doors must be capable of being barred or otherwise locked from the inside. Once the ICA commandos manage that, the Temple guards and inquisitors outside aren't going to fight their way in.

Of course merely seizing the Temple isn't the goal, the ICA needs to hold it for as long as necessary while Merlin & Co. deal with whatever is in the basement and have fun with all the captured vicars of course!

The infiltration and capture of the Temple needs to be done just before the ICN sails over the horizon and unloads thousands of troops, along with their artillery, mortars, rifles, and enough mines to reduce any counter-assault to giblets, along with whatever other military hardware the ICA might find useful.

The speed at which the ICA troops can arrive at the Temple depends partly on how navigable the Zion river is. We know from AMF that "Port Harbor is the major landfall for anyone traveling there by way of Hsing- wu’s Passage." That means almost all the pilgrims who travel to the Temple by sea disembark at Port Harbor and walk or ride the last 80 miles or so. This seems to indicate that sail-powered ocean vessels can't sail up the Zion river to the Temple. Can steam powered ships do it? If so, can they pull barges behind them?

There must be several large bridges or at least one huge bridge that spans the Zion river to handle the thousands who pass from Zion to the Temple each day. Depending on the height of those bridge(s), it may be impossible for a ship much larger (or taller at least) than a river ironclad to maneuver under them. If the archangels (or mere humans) built the bridge(s) with clearances high enough for ocean vessels, which is unlikely, then even the Haarahld VIIs might be able to sail all the way to the Temple, which would certainly be helpful! (Not to shell the Temple, but to shell enemy troops near the Temple.) The amount of ice that flows down the river every Spring would likely destroy any bridge that wasn't built by the archangels, so I'd bet on bridge(s) with high arches beneath them or suspension bridge(s) that span the entire river, but I'll leave those details up to RFC.

It's certain that many of the materials used to build the fleet at Port Harbor in AMF were shipped across Lake Pei from all over the Temple Lands, then down the Zion river, so it can handle barge traffic. Given the need to transport pilgrims and to supply the city of Zion with massive amounts of food, fuel, etc., since ocean vessels can't sail to Zion, there must be a canal path next the river to enable barges to ferry supplies from Port Harbor to the city, which would certainly help the ICA to transport troops and weapons. AMF hints that there's a high road from Port Harbor to the Temple, which the ICA could use, rain or shine, and the distance between the two is under 100 miles.

As the sole drainage for Lake Pei, which is larger than most of the Great Lakes combined, the Zion river is big. Such a vast amount of water draining for eons would be normally form a river wider than the Nile or the Mississippi, and would have a large delta, which the current map doesn't show. See http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/entry/Safehold/338/1 If the map is drawn to scale, the Zion "river" would actually be an outlet to the sea and not a river at all, which would make Port Harbor unnecessary, and the channel a dozen miles wide.

Clearly the river isn't miles wide, or no member of the vicarate could make it back to the comfy confines of the Temple after dark once he'd spent a few hours of revelry at Madame Orr's house. (I mean Madame Ahnzhelyk's House of Ladies of Negotiable Virtue.) Plus we have textev of Duchairn walking to Zion and returning daily while performing his priestly endeavors, so I'd be surprised if the eastern bank of the Zion river is more than a mile or two from the Temple, which puts an upward limit on the width of the river.

Of course there's likely to be a small city built around the Temple on the west side of the Zion river, which is probably considered part of Zion as well. (Remember all those people freezing to death on the Temple's heat exhaust ports? They have to find food somewhere during the day...)

Returning to our athletic pilgrims inside the Temple - they merely need to hold out until the ICA sweeps its way overland and/or upriver, destroying all opposition until it reaches the Temple. Fortunately for the good guys, the Temple sits atop a hill, so digging in and setting up redoubts and artillery that command a 360 degree view will make any CoGA attack to retake the Temple suicidal.

Port Harbor will surrender or be shelled by the Haarahld VIIs and then captured by the ICA, and the ICA troops will be better armed and organized than their hastily gathered opposition. It's unlikely that the CoGA could cut off the ICA's supply route until winter, especially if the Zion river is navigable by steamships. Should the ICA choose to retain possession of the Temple during the winter, the CoGA can entertain itself by besieging it. (Besieged = warm and comfy. Besiegers = freezing their appendages off!)

There are undoubtedly some escape tunnels we don't know about, but the vicarate may not ever have been told about them, or their existence may be a very close-held secret. (So Clyntahn could conceivably waddle his way to safety.) Of course if they haven't been used in a few centuries, it may be just a wee bit difficult to dig one's way out of them!

That's my theory. Now tell me all the holes in it, or better ways to capture the Temple. Only RFC knows for sure...

Silly boy. The temple doesn't get "taken". A new Vicar gets elected after the untimely death of the old one by natural causes (poisoned counts as natural causes right?)
The new Vicar then denounces the old Inquisitor and has him arrested and tried. Oh, he didn't survive the arrest? Pity about that.

Then the new Vicar calls off the Shan-Wei inspired Jihad and yadda yadda.

Annachie wrote:Silly boy. The temple doesn't get "taken". A new Vicar gets elected after the untimely death of the old one by natural causes (poisoned counts as natural causes right?)
The new Vicar then denounces the old Inquisitor and has him arrested and tried. Oh, he didn't survive the arrest? Pity about that.

Then the new Vicar calls off the Shan-Wei inspired Jihad and yadda yadda.

It might work if the new Grand Vicar of whom you speak wore antiballistic undies and an antiballistic cassock, and his contact lenses could scan for poisons! Being really good with a pistol would come in handy as well...

The population of Zion would vary in its opinion, I suspect that some would be actively supportive, some would be violently opposed, and probably most would be favorably inclined to neutral but afraid of doing anything.

Once you've taken Zion, I think that while the Temple has the heavily armored dome, the entryways are significantly more open and less fortified. That not to say that it was built without the ability to lock down the entryway like the rest of the exterior, but that it's currently set to be wide open, leaving just normal Federation-tech automatic doors, and the Church can't change what it is set to - it would take an Archangel/Angel, or whatever is under the Temple waking up, or the Return.

As far as besieging the Temple, while I suspect that there probably are hidden escape/access tunnels, I am doubtful that they are known to the Church, and likely are connected to the inaccessible regions under the Temple, and anywhere that was reserved for the Archangels.

Dilandu wrote:There are another problems; how would the Charisian react to the idea of attacking not just the Zion but the Temple itself? Probably not very good at all.

By this time a vast majority of Charisians would probably cheerfully flatten the place, especially given what "Mother Church" attempted in her attack on Charis. And I'm sure that Siddarmark feels even more strongly about it than Charis, given all the deaths caused by the Sword of Schueler. There is not going to be a whole lot of sympathy for the Temple when the culprits who caused the whole mess are forted up inside.

Don

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

While a siege would work, since there's no indication the food is grown inside the temple, the amount stored being the main question.

However I suspect a speedy penetration is more likely, and between Nynian and Paityr I suspect alternate entrances or accesses are available to any 'storming' party, though the inner circle would probably prefer the vicarate not know they'd come and left until after they had.

It might require some accommodation with Rhobair or another vicar if some of those entrances require current ID's or passwords he can provide, then the questions become how much can they trust him and with what.

It's been suggested that ICN marines or scout snipers disguised as pilgrims could take a tour before securing the entrances, but why not as fake temple guards so they'd already have weapons?

If the vicarate if not the temple guard are personally carrying revolvers by then, so could they; if the temple sensors permit them, but only RFC knows if the sensors can be tweaked by the current temple population to permit gunpowder weapons [which I doubt], and if so, will they then twig on the new smokeless propellants the pilgrims might be carrying?

I strongly doubt anyone currently in the temple knows how to adjust the sensors or scanners that finely if at all which assumes the sensors or the computer monitoring them recognizes gunpowder as a threat.

Otherwise they might have to rely on things like pneumatic pistols requiring special high pressure air flasks [or CO2 cartridges], which I think are well within Howsmyn's steel works current capabilities, and not considered a threat since the late 18th century Austrians did it with rifles for part of their army.

While various arbalests are also a possibility, they're kinda awkward to hide under pilgrim robes; hence I prefer fake temple guards for some, given Nynian can get authentication codes, which would work if so many new temple guard units had been moved to Zion recently that personal recognition isn't possible anymore.

What other near silent weapons can posters offer?

I suspect Nahrmahn has OWL already at work on some RFC has dreamed up, any guesses?

How about sleeping gas canisters to put as many as possible asleep?

Granted such gases aren't what the movies or novel claim but suggested to provoke more thinking.

L

As for silent weapons think blow guns with darts designed to tranquilize or poison, depending on what was appropriate to the situation.

Does anybody believe that in the middle of a desperate war for survival, you are still going to have throngs of pilgrims making their once in a lifetime trip to Zion to fill their religious duty? I don't. I'd be very surprised if at this time access to the Temple wasn't pretty severely limited as a wartime security measure.

I don't think gunpowder can be risked. I agree that the Temple has to be infiltrated, but instead of fake pilgrims, think fake Shuelerites armed with blow guns or whatever along with edged weapons hiding in the folds or under their cassocks.

Don