Oops

Hi Joat42,

You know RFC has been laughing his rear end off at all our fumbling trying to figure out what Shannon did.

I remember one suggestion at the bar was that she kept the missile ports closed so the missiles vented all their energy inside the sidewalls.

This of course assumed A) the missiles had launched-for which there was no textev; and B) the safety interlocks on distance traveled and velocity had somehow also been overcome, making the whole premise practically impossible, especially from RFC.

IIRC, I think someone asked RFC at the first HonorCon what had Shannon done, and he refused to say while smiling hugely and chortling.

L

Joat42 wrote:

clancy688 wrote:*quote="Joat42"*
The recent exploit of BMW cars with open http-servers on the built in WiFi says otherwise. *quote*

Which is exactly my point. They could unlock the car. They could not lock the brakes. Or steer the car. Or whatever which is [b]safety critical[/b].

I stated that they couldn't hack the WiFi and lock the brakes. I didn't state that they couldn't hack the WiFi. Of course you can break into the cellular network of a car. But even if you can, you can't access driving systems, because these are (supposed to be) physically separated sub-systems with their own control units.

Which brings us back to Shannon Foraker: Maybe she can break into the SS's com network. But she surely can't access the ships' engine systems over that.

Of course this only holds true if the ships in question are not designed for being remote-controlled. I'm sure you remember this drone which Iran managed to bring down... ^^

The HTTP-exploit also allowed the attacker to upload new software if they wanted, which means they could have done anything they wanted with the car given enough knowledge and time.

I've played with cars systems myself although via the OBD-II jack, and in most cases every system is cross-connected. Locking the brakes is entirely possible since cars that have advanced ABS and anti-skid systems controls the brakes via software. You can even trash gearboxes on newer cars too if you wanted.

It is a moot point arguing if Shannon could break into system X since she obviously managed to destroyed the ships and to do that she had to gain control over critical systems.

Alright alright!

I'll tell y'all what she did.

She uploaded a Microsoft update. That's a guarantee to phuck-up all systems for certain!

clancy688 wrote:Imho there is no way in hell for anyone to access critical systems such as fusion reactor control logic over a link which is, essentially, space wifi.

That's not how it's done and it's not how anyone with a working brain would organize the software architecture of something as complex as a warship. There's gonna be lots of encapsulated sub systems, maybe with diagnosis links, but those will be physically separated from actual control circuits.

Contrary to popular believe, you can't hack the wifi of a car and then access the control units to make it accelerate or brake. There is no connection between these subsystems. Why should there?

Shannon did not hack the wifi. The commands were imbedded in the operational plans for coordinating the fleet. In other words, she did not hack the wifi--she handed them a file (one file among thousands) containing a Trojan horse and said "insert these into your fleet-level command files, and set them to be automatically executed upon order from the command ship."

Now, we don't know exactly what types of commands the system was supposed to permit to be remotely executed by the command ship. But Shannon had a lot more access than merely hacking the wifi. She gave them a Trojan horse and let them insert the commands into their system with the right permissions.

clancy688 wrote:

Joat42 wrote:The recent exploit of BMW cars with open http-servers on the built in WiFi says otherwise.

Which is exactly my point. They could unlock the car. They could not lock the brakes. Or steer the car. Or whatever which is safety critical.

I stated that they couldn't hack the WiFi and lock the brakes. I didn't state that they couldn't hack the WiFi. Of course you can break into the cellular network of a car. But even if you can, you can't access driving systems, because these are (supposed to be) physically separated sub-systems with their own control units.

Which brings us back to Shannon Foraker: Maybe she can break into the SS's com network. But she surely can't access the ships' engine systems over that.

Of course this only holds true if the ships in question are not designed for being remote-controlled. I'm sure you remember this drone which Iran managed to bring down... ^^

Sure you can. It's all interconnected. You can't do it just by hacking the wifi, you need to introduce your own control interface first.

As far as the shipboard networks go, they're heavily networked and interconnected.
You need a fair amount of interconnectedness for efficiency, or any degree of automation.
This isn't Battlestar Galactica or 40k, where ships are designed to be highly resistant to hostile cyberwarfare actions of external origins, especially AI takeovers.
Foraker would have had copies of the OS that the StateSec ships were running - it's going to have been essentially identical to any other Peep ship.
She had authorized communications access, copies of the code to study and test against, and months to set things up. In addition, Foraker is actually very good with technology and computers, by Manticoran standards, and Peep software security is/was pretty bad, the majorities of the crews being of only limited technological literacy. Add in the vector she used to introduce her attack software - an official tactical/ops plan update. I expect that most anti-virus/etc software is focused on other communications channels - after all, you worry about somebody getting an infected mail or something from an unsecured network or having a contaminated personal device, not an attack originating within stored contingency orders from your own flagship.

And when she wrote the attack code, she had all the time she needed to study what she was going up against and targeting and to thoroughly test it to make sure it would work.

Kytheros wrote:Sure you can. It's all interconnected. You can't do it just by hacking the wifi, you need to introduce your own control interface first.

As far as the shipboard networks go, they're heavily networked and interconnected.
You need a fair amount of interconnectedness for efficiency, or any degree of automation.
This isn't Battlestar Galactica or 40k, where ships are designed to be highly resistant to hostile cyberwarfare actions of external origins, especially AI takeovers.
Foraker would have had copies of the OS that the StateSec ships were running - it's going to have been essentially identical to any other Peep ship.
She had authorized communications access, copies of the code to study and test against, and months to set things up. In addition, Foraker is actually very good with technology and computers, by Manticoran standards, and Peep software security is/was pretty bad, the majorities of the crews being of only limited technological literacy. Add in the vector she used to introduce her attack software - an official tactical/ops plan update. I expect that most anti-virus/etc software is focused on other communications channels - after all, you worry about somebody getting an infected mail or something from an unsecured network or having a contaminated personal device, not an attack originating within stored contingency orders from your own flagship.

And when she wrote the attack code, she had all the time she needed to study what she was going up against and targeting and to thoroughly test it to make sure it would work.

A possible real world example: In-flight Wi-Fi is “direct link” to hackers

cthia wrote:Alright alright!

I'll tell y'all what she did.

She uploaded a Microsoft update. That's a guarantee to phuck-up all systems for certain!

O, no! The Blue Screen of Death survived the Diaspora! I would have hoped it wouldn't survive cryo.

cthia wrote:Alright alright!

I'll tell y'all what she did.

She uploaded a Microsoft update. That's a guarantee to phuck-up all systems for certain!

If it doesn't freeze up your computer entirely while it uoloads...

Don

n7axw wrote:

cthia wrote:Alright alright!

I'll tell y'all what she did.

She uploaded a Microsoft update. That's a guarantee to phuck-up all systems for certain!

If it doesn't freeze up your computer entirely while it uoloads...

Don

The use of Microsoft updates in wartime was banned throughout the Honorverse following its abuse in Earth's Final War.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Joat42,

You know RFC has been laughing his rear end off at all our fumbling trying to figure out what Shannon did.

I remember one suggestion at the bar was that she kept the missile ports closed so the missiles vented all their energy inside the sidewalls.

This of course assumed A) the missiles had launched-for which there was no textev; and B) the safety interlocks on distance traveled and velocity had somehow also been overcome, making the whole premise practically impossible, especially from RFC.

IIRC, I think someone asked RFC at the first HonorCon what had Shannon done, and he refused to say while smiling hugely and chortling.

L

....now why does this not surprise me one bit.

My theory is that the fusion bottles failed, and I'm stickin' with it!

roseandheather wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Joat42,

You know RFC has been laughing his rear end off at all our fumbling trying to figure out what Shannon did.

I remember one suggestion at the bar was that she kept the missile ports closed so the missiles vented all their energy inside the sidewalls.

This of course assumed A) the missiles had launched-for which there was no textev; and B) the safety interlocks on distance traveled and velocity had somehow also been overcome, making the whole premise practically impossible, especially from RFC.

IIRC, I think someone asked RFC at the first HonorCon what had Shannon done, and he refused to say while smiling hugely and chortling.

L

....now why does this not surprise me one bit.

My theory is that the fusion bottles failed, and I'm stickin' with it!

Fusion bottles that went up after the Microsoft updates which also included a computer worm called Stuxnet.

Shannon manufactured one hell of a squirmy worm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet