Canal Across Charis?

I enjoy reading the novels, and have started reading them again last month. One thing that I have always wondered is why the EoC has not built a canal connecting Howell Bay to The Cauldron. The land south of Cresthollow seems flat enough, they have the engineering capability to do it. It would save weeks of sailing time for both merchantships and warships. I have looked though most of the threads and can't find anything related to this topic. Thoughts?

northerngreg wrote:I enjoy reading the novels, and have started reading them again last month. One thing that I have always wondered is why the EoC has not built a canal connecting Howell Bay to The Cauldron. The land south of Cresthollow seems flat enough, they have the engineering capability to do it. It would save weeks of sailing time for both merchantships and warships. I have looked though most of the threads and can't find anything related to this topic. Thoughts?

Two threads that have discussed it recently include:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6774&p=183655&hilit=canal#p183655

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6845&hilit=canal

It's one idea. A railroad in the same general area - perhaps with a bit more tolerance for elevations and rocky ground - is another. And canals from Howell Bay north through Delthak to MArgaret's Bay and Sea Trove's west coast (the southern end of Tranjyr Passage) are yet another. For that matter, those Margaret's Land canal proposals could conceivably be switched for railroad ones.

The kickers may be the need for iron and explosives for the war effort drawing off the materials you'd need for rail lines and "easy" canal building at this time. The projects would all be tremendously useful for transportation - I don't think anyone disputes that. But before Merlin, Charis did not need these urgent, and since Merlin, they've been too strained fighting a world.

Hi Jeff Engel,

I see canals continuing to be built in the empire and Siddarmark etc because they are low energy, ie low cost large bulk transporters, while the RR move more critical material at a considerably higher energy and financial cost, however dissipated by being distributed throughout all the cargo.

Given all the screw ups and incredible waste with governments trying to subsidize canals and railroads on Terra, I hope the inner circle comes up with much more rational means, aside from RR intendants for approved ex-inquisitors to make sure what is built is up to the required code.

Fortunately OWL and Nahrmahn are available to test the success of the various proposals in the VR long before any decisions are made, something the Earth's governments didn't have; to discover all the problems, plus the Silverlode wealth will help a lot, though I prefer minimum government financing, mainly acting as a major investor rather than the prime contractor.

L

JeffEngel wrote:

northerngreg wrote:I enjoy reading the novels, and have started reading them again last month. One thing that I have always wondered is why the EoC has not built a canal connecting Howell Bay to The Cauldron. The land south of Cresthollow seems flat enough, they have the engineering capability to do it. It would save weeks of sailing time for both merchantships and warships. I have looked though most of the threads and can't find anything related to this topic. Thoughts?

Two threads that have discussed it recently include:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6774&p=183655&hilit=canal#p183655

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6845&hilit=canal

It's one idea. A railroad in the same general area - perhaps with a bit more tolerance for elevations and rocky ground - is another. And canals from Howell Bay north through Delthak to MArgaret's Bay and Sea Trove's west coast (the southern end of Tranjyr Passage) are yet another. For that matter, those Margaret's Land canal proposals could conceivably be switched for railroad ones.

The kickers may be the need for iron and explosives for the war effort drawing off the materials you'd need for rail lines and "easy" canal building at this time. The projects would all be tremendously useful for transportation - I don't think anyone disputes that. But before Merlin, Charis did not need these urgent, and since Merlin, they've been too strained fighting a world.

Yeah, Lyonheart, you are likely correct.

Such large projects would soak up any displaced labor from increased use of steam power. Build canals as a public works project that actually add economic value to the economy. Transition to railroads as materials become available for no war uses.

Have the canals funded and owned by the House of Ahrmahk. Bid out the management contract on 5 year terms with performance standards. There would also be roads beside those canals. Leave railroads as pure private sector investments. Canals would act as competition for freight routes to keep prices down.

Because canals would make distribution of goods cheaper, the additional gold injected into the Charisian economy would stimulate production and not simply fuel inflation. Oh, and that program would also function as a vehicle to inject additional money into the system at the ground level.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Jeff Engel,

I see canals continuing to be built in the empire and Siddarmark etc because they are low energy, ie low cost large bulk transporters, while the RR move more critical material at a considerably higher energy and financial cost, however dissipated by being distributed throughout all the cargo.

Given all the screw ups and incredible waste with governments trying to subsidize canals and railroads on Terra, I hope the inner circle comes up with much more rational means, aside from RR intendants for approved ex-inquisitors to make sure what is built is up to the required code.

Fortunately OWL and Nahrmahn are available to test the success of the various proposals in the VR long before any decisions are made, something the Earth's governments didn't have; to discover all the problems, plus the Silverlode wealth will help a lot, though I prefer minimum government financing, mainly acting as a major investor rather than the prime contractor.

L

PeterZ wrote:Yeah, Lyonheart, you are likely correct.

Such large projects would soak up any displaced labor from increased use of steam power. Build canals as a public works project that actually add economic value to the economy. Transition to railroads as materials become available for no war uses.

Have the canals funded and owned by the House of Ahrmahk. Bid out the management contract on 5 year terms with performance standards. There would also be roads beside those canals. Leave railroads as pure private sector investments. Canals would act as competition for freight routes to keep prices down.

Because canals would make distribution of goods cheaper, the additional gold injected into the Charisian economy would stimulate production and not simply fuel inflation. Oh, and that program would also function as a vehicle to inject additional money into the system at the ground level.

Any canal linking Howell Bay and the Margaret's Land/Charis' west coast would help link Tarot economically and politically more firmly to Charis, and the connections to Siddarmark and Silkiah would be welcome too.

I doubt Desnairian privateers are working the northern and eastern Margaret's Land coasts, but if they are, moving some of that traffic inland would spite them and make convoys shorter. Granted, that would only be relevant if there are Desnairian or other enemy privateers by the time any such canal or railroad were complete.

I do wonder if internal Charisian politics aren't a problem though. Any such canal would reduce the Lock Island passage fees, so Earl Lock Island can't be thrilled about the prospect in his pocket book. On the other hand, he's also about as reasonable as you could possibly hope for that way, and it may help to cut the Earldom in on future canal/railroad income, as a royal grant in case of public utilities, or as a part owner on favored investment terms as a privately held entity.

I also wonder if they are holding off on Charisian canals, or railroads, to cut around sea passages until Chisholm works out its own new canals and/or railroads to knit the interior resources and population into new industries. To the extent that the projects will eat into skilled labor and materials, bringing Chisholm (and Corisande, Zebediah, Tarot and Emerald for that matter) up to a similar standard of industrial might has to be a higher priority politically and economically than polishing up Charis even more. Chisholm's canal and railroad projects are likely to be easier individually: letting them take the lead can work the kinks out first and give them a pride of being ahead of Charis for once. (Well - twice counting the army.) Chisholm may also have more canal experience than Charis, since Charis has had Howell and Margaret Bays for "natural canals" and thus little traditional canal building experience.

JeffEngel wrote:Any canal linking Howell Bay and the Margaret's Land/Charis' west coast would help link Tarot economically and politically more firmly to Charis, and the connections to Siddarmark and Silkiah would be welcome too.

I doubt Desnairian privateers are working the northern and eastern Margaret's Land coasts, but if they are, moving some of that traffic inland would spite them and make convoys shorter. Granted, that would only be relevant if there are Desnairian or other enemy privateers by the time any such canal or railroad were complete.

I do wonder if internal Charisian politics aren't a problem though. Any such canal would reduce the Lock Island passage fees, so Earl Lock Island can't be thrilled about the prospect in his pocket book. On the other hand, he's also about as reasonable as you could possibly hope for that way, and it may help to cut the Earldom in on future canal/railroad income, as a royal grant in case of public utilities, or as a part owner on favored investment terms as a privately held entity.

I also wonder if they are holding off on Charisian canals, or railroads, to cut around sea passages until Chisholm works out its own new canals and/or railroads to knit the interior resources and population into new industries. To the extent that the projects will eat into skilled labor and materials, bringing Chisholm (and Corisande, Zebediah, Tarot and Emerald for that matter) up to a similar standard of industrial might has to be a higher priority politically and economically than polishing up Charis even more. Chisholm's canal and railroad projects are likely to be easier individually: letting them take the lead can work the kinks out first and give them a pride of being ahead of Charis for once. (Well - twice counting the army.) Chisholm may also have more canal experience than Charis, since Charis has had Howell and Margaret Bays for "natural canals" and thus little traditional canal building experience.

I don't believe that Chisholm would benefit more from an immediate project to dig canals than a railroad when the materials become available. There is a ~100 mile stretch in Crest Hollow that might work to build a canal connecting The Cauldron to Howell Bay. The rest of Charis Island would benefit from upgrading the major rivers to improve their transport ability. I don't believe Margret's Land is populated enough to warrant that sort of investment yet.

Chisholm, however, is another kettle of fish. Outside the Fence, there isn't place where a canal would truly help expedite transport. Any canals built would not be useful in winter. Better to wait for materials to become available and build railroads. If economic dislocation becomes a serious problem soon, build a canal along the Fence to hire extra bodies.

I would prioritize Chisholm for railroads with Emerald and Zebediah next more for political reasons than economic ones. As for The Lock, commerce between the islands will keep Lock island a wealthy Earldom for quite some time. I also believe that between the ravages of war in the mainland, economic expansion in Siddermark and the EoC, there will be mass migrations by the displaced and unemployed to work those projects. I don't believe there will be enough Imperial citizens to staff all the projects Silverlode's wealth will make possible.

PeterZ wrote:I don't believe that Chisholm would benefit more from an immediate project to dig canals than a railroad when the materials become available. There is a ~100 mile stretch in Crest Hollow that might work to build a canal connecting The Cauldron to Howell Bay. The rest of Charis Island would benefit from upgrading the major rivers to improve their transport ability. I don't believe Margret's Land is populated enough to warrant that sort of investment yet.

If you're counting on refugees from Siddarmark and other places in the mainland for labor, you could count on them for more population in Margaret's Land too - assuming there's reason to settle down there during or after canal/railroad building. And a lot of the canal building simply is river dredging and improvement, pretty much anywhere you can. Margaret's Land canals would serve primarily to close gaps between natural waterways: the Delthak River, the river running across Sea Trove from the mountains to Margaret Bay, and the blue waters of Howell Bay, Margaret Bay, and Tranjyr Passage. That complex would also do the job of the Howell Bay to the west coast canal. It's much more ambitious than a Tellesberg-Cauldron Canal which would do that job too, but it would do not only that but link Howell Bay to Margaret Bay and northern Margaret's Land to southern Margaret's Land.

Chisholm, however, is another kettle of fish. Outside the Fence, there isn't place where a canal would truly help expedite transport. Any canals built would not be useful in winter. Better to wait for materials to become available and build railroads. If economic dislocation becomes a serious problem soon, build a canal along the Fence to hire extra bodies.

I'm not clear enough on Chisholm's traffic specifics to rule out short-range canals here and there to improve movement of raw materials and finished products inland. Certainly cold is an issue, but it can be for railroads too with snowfall, southern Chisholm is less vulnerable that way, and seasonal use of either canals or railroads can still be much better than not having them at all.

The Fence is a natural place to consider a canal, but how much traffic is there from points near it on one side to points near it on the other, or for which it would cut out a huge amount of the travel time? Raven's Land isn't much of a market for anyone yet, as a consumer or supplier, and the Western Crown Demesne isn't either. The northern and southern Chisholm coastal areas could helpfully be connected by a canal anywhere across the WCD, from the Fence on down to the southeastern base of the isthmus, and it'd reduce travel time from Charis to the northern Chisholmian coast slightly, but those are probably not sufficient gains to compel that expense and effort - barring local factors that I at least don't know enough to rule in or out.

Chances are, plenty of the connections in Chisholm will be better made with railroads than with canals - certainly eventually, and probably even in the near term. It's not riven with internal waterways like Charis/Margaret's Land for canals to finish linking up. But right now, expertise and materials for canal building are much less tight than for railroads - and refugee labor may bring mainland canal skills but no railroad building skills at all. And the existing canals and rivers can be expanded to create new and better links, in some places, likely with more ease than railroads starting from scratch.

I would prioritize Chisholm for railroads with Emerald and Zebediah next more for political reasons than economic ones.

I wonder about Zebediah - not about the political reasons to support its infrastructure, all granted there, but about the useful communication links and what they need to go over. I think Zebediah is relatively flat - the map and my vague recollections suggest that anyway; as ever, happy to be corrected - which would be handy for building railroads or canals. It's got a number of reasonably deep bays, which suggest some good work for small canals for local-to-Zebediah traffic. It's not really much of a candidate for canals for ocean-going vessels, unlike the possible Charisian canals, but that does make them easier projects too. On the other hand, if it is as flat as it looks, warm, and dry, shooting railroads wherever you need them to be would be as easy as it is going to get.

As for The Lock, commerce between the islands will keep Lock island a wealthy Earldom for quite some time. I also believe that between the ravages of war in the mainland, economic expansion in Siddermark and the EoC, there will be mass migrations by the displaced and unemployed to work those projects. I don't believe there will be enough Imperial citizens to staff all the projects Silverlode's wealth will make possible.

For that matter, there are likely more than a few people in the Raven Lands or the Duchy of Fallos too (relatively speaking - they're both underpopulated) who may be lured off to work on canals, railroads, and Silverlode mines, or on subsidiary projects. Fallosian fisherfolk and lumberjacks may move to feed Silverlode miners and cut the timber for those mines. And Corisande's farms are likely to need far, far fewer people with Out Islander farm industry finally unleashed there.

The key industries are having to develop skilled labor from scratch or nearly so, putting a serious crimp in development, however much money or urgency there is. But certainly there are plenty of sources of labor, materials, and money to shift around to cover the remaining needs and support the development of transportation as well as direct industry.

JeffEngel wrote:
The key industries are having to develop skilled labor from scratch or nearly so, putting a serious crimp in development, however much money or urgency there is. But certainly there are plenty of sources of labor, materials, and money to shift around to cover the remaining needs and support the development of transportation as well as direct industry.

Which brings me back to an idea discussed a while back. Buy Harchong slave women and children for resettling and emancipation in Charis. Encourage immigration for sure, but why not also buy slaves make free where their labor is more needed?

We've never, AFAICR, met the current Lord Lock Island, assuming of course that she isn't actually Lady Lock Island, but he's more than likely a pretty junior officer. Important as the Earldom is, the incumbent's political clout is going to be pretty limited compared to that of the late High Admiral.

JeffEngel wrote:
< snip >

I do wonder if internal Charisian politics aren't a problem though. Any such canal would reduce the Lock Island passage fees, so Earl Lock Island can't be thrilled about the prospect in his pocket book. On the other hand, he's also about as reasonable as you could possibly hope for that way, and it may help to cut the Earldom in on future canal/railroad income, as a royal grant in case of public utilities, or as a part owner on favored investment terms as a privately held entity.

If Zebediah is flat - and you're right that that is what the map shows, but it would surprise me to find that it is, and not just not filled it - canals are a non-starter, and railway will be the only option. If it is an option, that is.

Canals first: flat tropical islands are dry tropical islands, as anybody on Antigua or Anguilla can tell you. There has to be at least several hundred feet of relief to squeeze even moderate quantities of water out of the passing winds, and canals need quite a bit of water to operate. A flat island probably wouldn't have it available on demand.

Flat does mean that railway building is easy. OTOH, it likely also means that there's little or no local coal, so all the fuel for a railway would have to be shipped in. That would affect the economics. The flip side is that flat also often means an old, geologically stable and heavily eroded terrane - which are often good places to find petroleum

JeffEngel wrote:
< snip >

I wonder about Zebediah - not about the political reasons to support its infrastructure, all granted there, but about the useful communication links and what they need to go over. I think Zebediah is relatively flat - the map and my vague recollections suggest that anyway; as ever, happy to be corrected - which would be handy for building railroads or canals. It's got a number of reasonably deep bays, which suggest some good work for small canals for local-to-Zebediah traffic. It's not really much of a candidate for canals for ocean-going vessels, unlike the possible Charisian canals, but that does make them easier projects too. On the other hand, if it is as flat as it looks, warm, and dry, shooting railroads wherever you need them to be would be as easy as it is going to get.