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One way to kill the grand inquisitor and rayno now

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Re: One way to kill the grand inquisitor and rayno now
Post by saber964   » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:54 pm

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McGuiness wrote:
MPCatchup wrote:Clyntahn is acting somewhat like Hitler near the last years of WWII in that his policies and leadership is starting to cause his own side to not take advantage of situations because they are afraid of what his reaction might be.
Since Hitler also had several of his generals shot or forced them to commit suicide, like Rommel did, if the resemblance between der Fuhrer and Clyntahn continues, we may see Kaitswyrth up against the wall for cowardice. It would be more useful to the allies to have Wyrshym shot since he's a better commander, but we can't have everything... :lol:


Hitler was also famous or infamous for his bonehead views on tech advances. EG the ME 262 was ready for full production and deployment in early 43 but because Hitler wanted a blitz-bomber the plane was delayed until early 44. By then the allies had so many aircraft the Luftwaffe was overwhelmed. To illustrate this in September 44 the 8th AF conducted a raid on Kiel that included 1500+ bombers and 750 fighters it was met at one point by 40 ME 262.
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Re: One way to kill the grand inquisitor and rayno now
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:03 am

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Hi Saber964,

Not quite.

The primary problem of the LW was it was too small and didn't train enough pilots fast enough, as in 1943 it trained only 3000 fighter pilots, only replacing the 3000 it lost that year; while the US and Great Britain were training that many every month, NTM increasing those numbers, so while the LW was already losing the war in '43, the results from the huge allied training program became overwhelming in 1944 when it became a race between the allied fighter pilots, mainly in the P-47's and P-51's, and the pitifully half trained [if that] remaining German pilots as to who could destroy LW aircraft faster, the Germans if they survived combat, often preferred to bail out rather than attempt to land, which says a great deal about their trust in their training and experience.

The Me-262 while innovative in many ways was still unready for war in 1944-45, primarily because its engines were still so lousy, only lasting 20-25 hours before requiring replacement, so that you can see film of them being towed around the airfields by horses because the LW couldn't afford the taxi time on the engines!

The V6 prototype Hitler saw was the only the only one still flying because all the rest had crashed.

At the time he thought he'd mastered the American daylight bombers at Schweinfurt, having no clue that the Merlin engined P-51 Mustang's were only 2-3 weeks away from their combat debut in early December IIRC, so Hitler ordered the Me-262 into production before they were ready and the LW suffered for it because the pitiful unreliable engines meant that despite building some 1500 and several times as many engines, the LW never got more than 50-60 in the air at one time, against around 13 thousand P-51's built in the same period, NTM P-47's etc.

Because the Me-262 used kerosene, it wasn't as affected by the allied air attacks on oil and av-gas as the rest of the LW, though it often limited operations to 1 or 2 at most per week.

Besides their vulnerability taking off and landing, where they had to be defended by FW-190's etc, there was the tactical limitation of only 80 or 100 rounds for the Me-262's 4 30 mm cannon, just a few seconds at a high RoF.

Granted they were bomber killers if they hit, but the bombers cruising at ~168-174 mph meant the jet fighters overtook them too fast even attacking from the rear and had to porpoise etc to try to have enough time to actually aim.

The actual number of confirmed Me-262 kills is absurdly low for what was a revolutionary advance in fighters, although the swept wings were bent backwards initially to shift the center of gravity to where it had to be, not because it improved speed etc.

L


saber964 wrote:*quote="McGuiness"*[quote="MPCatchup"]Clyntahn is acting somewhat like Hitler near the last years of WWII in that his policies and leadership is starting to cause his own side to not take advantage of situations because they are afraid of what his reaction might be.
Since Hitler also had several of his generals shot or forced them to commit suicide, like Rommel did, if the resemblance between der Fuhrer and Clyntahn continues, we may see Kaitswyrth up against the wall for cowardice. It would be more useful to the allies to have Wyrshym shot since he's a better commander, but we can't have everything... :lol:*quote*

Hitler was also famous or infamous for his bonehead views on tech advances. EG the ME 262 was ready for full production and deployment in early 43 but because Hitler wanted a blitz-bomber the plane was delayed until early 44. By then the allies had so many aircraft the Luftwaffe was overwhelmed. To illustrate this in September 44 the 8th AF conducted a raid on Kiel that included 1500+ bombers and 750 fighters it was met at one point by 40 ME 262.[/quote]
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: One way to kill the grand inquisitor and rayno now
Post by Dilandu   » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:08 am

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lyonheart wrote:The actual number of confirmed Me-262 kills is absurdly low for what was a revolutionary advance in fighters, although the swept wings were bent backwards initially to shift the center of gravity to where it had to be, not because it improved speed etc.


Well, when Me-262 was introduced in service, it was actually still on prototype stage at best. In fact, by the end of the war, "Meteor" and "Shooting Star" was much more combat-ready than any german jets.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: One way to kill the grand inquisitor and rayno now
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:42 am

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Hi Dilandu,

Yup, while their respective dog fighting performance was worse, by comparison they did have far more reliable engines, though certainly not by piston engine standards.

Indeed one reason for the P-59's supposed poor performance was the GE engineers were constantly reducing the power of the jets to increase their apparent reliability to meet the USAAF's minimum of 300 hours between engine changes, so instead of the claimed 1600-2000 pounds of thrust, the jet engines were only ~1200 lbs IIRC, and Bell didn't find out how they were being deliberately shortchanged in the promised power until after the USAAF had given up on the P-59.

Lucky for the GE team they weren't in Germany, or they might have been shot for sabotaging the state's defenses, though there were Bell engineers who were quite willing to execute summary justice here.

L


Dilandu wrote:
lyonheart wrote:The actual number of confirmed Me-262 kills is absurdly low for what was a revolutionary advance in fighters, although the swept wings were bent backwards initially to shift the center of gravity to where it had to be, not because it improved speed etc.


Well, when Me-262 was introduced in service, it was actually still on prototype stage at best. In fact, by the end of the war, "Meteor" and "Shooting Star" was much more combat-ready than any german jets.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: One way to kill the grand inquisitor and rayno now
Post by lyonheart   » Thu Apr 09, 2015 3:49 am

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Hi McGuiness,

I thought this had gone through awhile back, but evidently not.

I don't think Clyntahn will ever have that opportunity with Kaitswyrth, since so many scout snipers, dragoons and Glacierheart volunteers, NTM ICA artillerymen are much closer... 8-)

Meanwhile by that time, Wyrshym will probably already be BGV's prisoner, and begin to realise just how wrong his preconceptions have been. :D

L


McGuiness wrote:
MPCatchup wrote:Clyntahn is acting somewhat like Hitler near the last years of WWII in that his policies and leadership is starting to cause his own side to not take advantage of situations because they are afraid of what his reaction might be.
Since Hitler also had several of his generals shot or forced them to commit suicide, like Rommel did, if the resemblance between der Fuhrer and Clyntahn continues, we may see Kaitswyrth up against the wall for cowardice. It would be more useful to the allies to have Wyrshym shot since he's a better commander, but we can't have everything... :lol:
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: One way to kill the grand inquisitor and rayno now
Post by McGuiness   » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:53 pm

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lyonheart wrote:Hi McGuiness,

I thought this had gone through awhile back, but evidently not.

I don't think Clyntahn will ever have that opportunity with Kaitswyrth, since so many scout snipers, dragoons and Glacierheart volunteers, NTM ICA artillerymen are much closer... 8-)

Meanwhile by that time, Wyrshym will probably already be BGV's prisoner, and begin to realise just how wrong his preconceptions have been. :D

L
McGuiness wrote:Since Hitler also had several of his generals shot or forced them to commit suicide, like Rommel did, if the resemblance between der Fuhrer and Clyntahn continues, we may see Kaitswyrth up against the wall for cowardice. It would be more useful to the allies to have Wyrshym shot since he's a better commander, but we can't have everything... :lol:
I agree that Kaitswyrth isn't going to make it home, I'm just not sure how he'll meet his end. Theoretically he should end up as a POW, but his intendant is a Clyntahn fanatic, and Kaitswyrth has already shown that he'll buckle under to Clyntahn's orders rather than Magwair's, even when it clearly means his army is going to get reamed.

At the moment he's heavily outnumbered and outgunned, so unless the MHoG arrives to swell his ranks (and complicate his supply situation since he's about to lose the southern route) he's going to lose his next battle - badly. I'm not sure if he could break north and retreat, (if the Inquisition would let him!) or if his army will simply die in place, but from his perspective things look... Bleek! ;)

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: One way to kill the grand inquisitor and rayno now
Post by fossten   » Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:56 am

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packhunter wrote:Mr. Weber still needs a villian.

So no defeat of the Archvillian/Final boss before he's ready to end this chapter of the Safeholdian conflict. Besides I suspect if anyone is going to get the chance to kill Clinthian its going to be Duchrain. There's been too much build up for anything else to happen.

The Gbaba are the real enemy here. Killing Clyntahn won't end the story.
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Re: One way to kill the grand inquisitor and rayno now
Post by n7axw   » Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:00 pm

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McGuiness wrote:I agree that Kaitswyrth isn't going to make it home, I'm just not sure how he'll meet his end. Theoretically he should end up as a POW, but his intendant is a Clyntahn fanatic, and Kaitswyrth has already shown that he'll buckle under to Clyntahn's orders rather than Magwair's, even when it clearly means his army is going to get reamed.

At the moment he's heavily outnumbered and outgunned, so unless the MHoG arrives to swell his ranks (and complicate his supply situation since he's about to lose the southern route) he's going to lose his next battle - badly. I'm not sure if he could break north and retreat, (if the Inquisition would let him!) or if his army will simply die in place, but from his perspective things look... Bleek! ;)


I agree that Kaitwryth will probably end up a pow or a casualty. My own vision is that EOC dragoons work around him and cut off his supply lines and as he tries to dislodge the dragoons, he will be either encircled or pinchered as Symkins hits him from the rear at which time his unit cohesion crumbles and it's all over but the the mop-up.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: One way to kill the grand inquisitor and rayno now
Post by PalmerSperry   » Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:54 pm

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pokermind wrote:While emotionally satisfying I wonder if it's wise they might get competent leadership in the temple. After all The Grand Inquisitor is the greatest military genius, not, since Der Fuher, Adolf Hitler.


Eliminating Clyntahn raises the question of who would become Grand Inquisitor? IMHO it's established that in the normal scheme of things Rayno would have no realistic chance of the job, but this is a war-time situation. Would the remaining members of the Group of Four promote him, or perhaps merely make him head of the Inquisition whilst they run things?

However the really interesting idea, to my mind, would be to get Rayno eliminated by Clyntahn! This would (a) show that no-one is safe (we already know this, but I suspect quite a few TL's wouldn't agree!) and (b) remove one of the brakes on Clyntahn. This latter point is likely to be bad in the short term, but in the longer term it's not going to help the Church at all!
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Re: One way to kill the grand inquisitor and rayno now
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Apr 18, 2015 2:13 am

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Hi PalmerSperry,

It's been discussed before, that Clyntahn eliminating Rayno would hurt the CoGA and the inquisition in particular more than getting rid of Clyntahn, because Rayno is the key or actual administrator, and Clyntahn has no one we know who could replace him.

If Rhobair does get rid of Clyntahn, would the then Go3 offer Rayno the position of Inquisitor General?

Possibly, and Rayno might be quite relieved to have more rational less vengeful orders, but what would his reaction be to any suggestion of treating with the heretics or ending the jihad be?

It's been suggested that with Rayno in command the inquisition might be more effective against the alliance than with Clyntahn still alive or in charge.

What kind of proper punishment is there for Rayno?

What do people think RFC is most likely to do in dealing out Rayno's fate?

142 days left and counting.

L


[quote="PalmerSperry"][quote="pokermind"]While emotionally satisfying I wonder if it's wise they might get competent leadership in the temple. After all The Grand Inquisitor is the greatest military genius, not, since Der Fuher, Adolf Hitler.[/quote]

Eliminating Clyntahn raises the question of who would become Grand Inquisitor? IMHO it's established that in the normal scheme of things Rayno would have no realistic chance of the job, but this is a war-time situation. Would the remaining members of the Group of Four promote him, or perhaps merely make him head of the Inquisition whilst they run things?

However the really interesting idea, to my mind, would be to get Rayno eliminated by Clyntahn! This would (a) show that no-one is safe (we already know this, but I suspect quite a few TL's wouldn't agree!) and (b) remove one of the brakes on Clyntahn. This latter point is likely to be bad in the short term, but in the longer term it's not going to help the Church at all![/quote]
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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