Discrediting the COGA - How?

schoeffelk wrote:Here's a more believable idea.
Have OWL and Merlin make personal journals of all the major players; Shan Wei, Pei Wei, Langhorne, Bedard, Schuler, ... asking forgiveness of the people of Safehold

That would be a lie, and neither Merlin, nor Cayleb and Sharleyan, nor RFC would go that way.

First because they are who they are, and second because once one lie is discovered, no one would trust them about anything else.

Philip Stanley wrote:Are we going to be fed some major "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" handwaving by the Author?

I suspect we're going to be treated to a compressed version of the History of Protestantism; instead of the ~110 years between Luther's 95 Theses and the start of the Thirty Years War in the Germanies. Instead of 110 years, we'll get 20 (Safehold) years for the COC to spread and mutate while the CoGA self-destructs by trying to perpetuate centralized religious control and a State Religion...

The only thing in the Writ that needs to be overturned immediately is the Proscriptions of Jwo-jeng; I don't know enough about the timing and "originality" of the Proscriptions to know the best revelation to overturn them, but they are the only real bar to innovation and progress.

RFC's hints about a twenty year gap before another war suggests that:

a) the reveal won't come until a generation of young inventors is in place;

b) There will be a "softening up" period before the Big Reveal.

c) The CoC's emphasis on a personal interpretation of the Writ and personal relationship with God needs to spread; much as the spread of Protestantism was a prerequisite for the Thirty Years War. The Holy Roman Empire felt threatened by Protestantism because it drew its legitimacy from the Pope and RCC.

d) The CoGA will continue to feel threatened by the CoC and other Reformist churches and shoot itself in the foot trying to use force and intimidation to suppress competition.

The Church of Charis and/or the Empire of Charis won't need to discredit the CoGA, the CoGA will do that for them. All they need to do is be themselves and point out the CoGA's brutality and hypocrisy.

Weird Harold wrote:

Philip Stanley wrote:Are we going to be fed some major "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" handwaving by the Author?

I suspect we're going to be treated to a compressed version of the History of Protestantism; instead of the ~110 years between Luther's 95 Theses and the start of the Thirty Years War in the Germanies. Instead of 110 years, we'll get 20 (Safehold) years for the COC to spread and mutate while the CoGA self-destructs by trying to perpetuate centralized religious control and a State Religion...

The only thing in the Writ that needs to be overturned immediately is the Proscriptions of Jwo-jeng; I don't know enough about the timing and "originality" of the Proscriptions to know the best revelation to overturn them, but they are the only real bar to innovation and progress.

RFC's hints about a twenty year gap before another war suggests that:

a) the reveal won't come until a generation of young inventors is in place;

b) There will be a "softening up" period before the Big Reveal.

c) The CoC's emphasis on a personal interpretation of the Writ and personal relationship with God needs to spread; much as the spread of Protestantism was a prerequisite for the Thirty Years War. The Holy Roman Empire felt threatened by Protestantism because it drew its legitimacy from the Pope and RCC.

d) The CoGA will continue to feel threatened by the CoC and other Reformist churches and shoot itself in the foot trying to use force and intimidation to suppress competition.

The Church of Charis and/or the Empire of Charis won't need to discredit the CoGA, the CoGA will do that for them. All they need to do is be themselves and point out the CoGA's brutality and hypocrisy.

The Proscriptions can't be tossed until after the OBS/complete control of the OBS is secured. Not completely anyways.

Well, the ~20-year interval fits the scheduled Angelic Return kicking off round two.

I think that the Return is likely to accelerate the plans on revealing the truth. Without the Return's imminence, I suspect that a longer, more gradual softening period - quite possibly a multi-generational one, would be the preferred choice.

Weird Harold wrote:

Philip Stanley wrote:Are we going to be fed some major "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" handwaving by the Author?

I suspect we're going to be treated to a compressed version of the History of Protestantism; instead of the ~110 years between Luther's 95 Theses and the start of the Thirty Years War in the Germanies. Instead of 110 years, we'll get 20 (Safehold) years for the COC to spread and mutate while the CoGA self-destructs by trying to perpetuate centralized religious control and a State Religion...

The only thing in the Writ that needs to be overturned immediately is the Proscriptions of Jwo-jeng; I don't know enough about the timing and "originality" of the Proscriptions to know the best revelation to overturn them, but they are the only real bar to innovation and progress.

RFC's hints about a twenty year gap before another war suggests that:

a) the reveal won't come until a generation of young inventors is in place;

b) There will be a "softening up" period before the Big Reveal.

c) The CoC's emphasis on a personal interpretation of the Writ and personal relationship with God needs to spread; much as the spread of Protestantism was a prerequisite for the Thirty Years War. The Holy Roman Empire felt threatened by Protestantism because it drew its legitimacy from the Pope and RCC.

d) The CoGA will continue to feel threatened by the CoC and other Reformist churches and shoot itself in the foot trying to use force and intimidation to suppress competition.

The Church of Charis and/or the Empire of Charis won't need to discredit the CoGA, the CoGA will do that for them. All they need to do is be themselves and point out the CoGA's brutality and hypocrisy.

I suspect that once things reach a tipping point, it will happen pretty fast. It won't be everywhere or universal, but for a majority of Safehold, the COGA will have lost credibility and be left with a rump of the more isolated, backward areas.

I agree that the COGA will discredit itself without a lot of outside help. Also when honoring the proscriptions causes one to fall behind both economicly and militarily, the consequences will start perculating through the minds of lots of rulers which could cause them to fade away rather than be specificly renounced.


Minor nit: 101 years between posting of 95 Theses in 1517 and beginning of 30 years war in 1618.

Don

Kytheros wrote:
The Proscriptions can't be tossed until after the OBS/complete control of the OBS is secured. Not completely anyways.

Well, the ~20-year interval fits the scheduled Angelic Return kicking off round two.

I think that the Return is likely to accelerate the plans on revealing the truth. Without the Return's imminence, I suspect that a longer, more gradual softening period - quite possibly a multi-generational one, would be the preferred choice.

If the OBS is really a threat, you are certainly right about electricity. It seems to be tolerating everything else. If it was going to react, it should have reacted to gunpowder and steam...

Wouldn't it be a real bust to discover that controls are only manual and that nobody in the Temple knows how to punch the proper Buttons to make it go? Or that the thing is broke down and except for its defences non-functional. In a way it would be hard to know whether to be elated or disappointed... Instead of a tiger, we'd have a mouse!

Don

n7axw wrote:Minor nit: 101 years between posting of 95 Theses in 1517 and beginning of 30 years war in 1618.

We'll call that a Typo, then.

(Wikipedia says 1521 for posting the Thesis and Grantville showed up in 1631 == 110)

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:Minor nit: 101 years between posting of 95 Theses in 1517 and beginning of 30 years war in 1618.

We'll call that a Typo, then.

(Wikipedia says 1521 for posting the Thesis and Grantville showed up in 1631 == 110)

Two very solid sources, indeed (tongue thrust firmly in cheek)...

Don

Hi Don,

I've often wondered the same myself, that after all the hoopla, fear and planning, it was hamstrung by something that was overlooked, or someone died before they passed along some crucial bit of information etc.

I'm not sure the great reveal is 17 or 20 years in the future, RFC mentioned Cayleb might accidentally allude to it much earlier than planned.

L

n7axw wrote:

Kytheros wrote:
The Proscriptions can't be tossed until after the OBS/complete control of the OBS is secured. Not completely anyways.

Well, the ~20-year interval fits the scheduled Angelic Return kicking off round two.

I think that the Return is likely to accelerate the plans on revealing the truth. Without the Return's imminence, I suspect that a longer, more gradual softening period - quite possibly a multi-generational one, would be the preferred choice.

If the OBS is really a threat, you are certainly right about electricity. It seems to be tolerating everything else. If it was going to react, it should have reacted to gunpowder and steam...

Wouldn't it be a real bust to discover that controls are only manual and that nobody in the Temple knows how to punch the proper Buttons to make it go? Or that the thing is broke down and except for its defences non-functional. In a way it would be hard to know whether to be elated or disappointed... Instead of a tiger, we'd have a mouse!

Don

lyonheart wrote:Hi Don,

I've often wondered the same myself, that after all the hoopla, fear and planning, it was hamstrung by something that was overlooked, or someone died before they passed along some crucial bit of information etc.

I'm not sure the great reveal is 17 or 20 years in the future, RFC mentioned Cayleb might accidentally allude to it much earlier than planned.

Perhaps the Inner Circle will deliberately reveal the truth. Say the war ends with a treaty that doesn't give them access to the Temple, so they assume that the Archangels will return on schedule. The best approach might be to spend the next 10 years laying the groundwork as best they can, make the reveal as big and spectacular as the OBS will allow, and have the (roughly) next 5 years to deal with the consequences. By the time the Archangels return the milk is so completely spilt there's no way they can mop it up.

jms

Aethor wrote:

schoeffelk wrote:Here's a more believable idea.
Have OWL and Merlin make personal journals of all the major players; Shan Wei, Pei Wei, Langhorne, Bedard, Schuler, ... asking forgiveness of the people of Safehold

That would be a lie, and neither Merlin, nor Cayleb and Sharleyan, nor RFC would go that way.

First because they are who they are, and second because once one lie is discovered, no one would trust them about anything else.

Another option could be using the fact that we know the Scriptures were edited after Kauyung's reply (from book 1) to add both the books of Schuyler and Chihiro and I am sure other changes. Dig up some suitably antique original versions and then state the added books were heretical revisions and unauthorized fabrications and work from there. (Ever wondered why the Catholic bible and Protestant bible are different (and differ from the accepted books familiar to the early Christian church)? - same argument).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_the_Bible