Dealing with the Inquisition

PeterZ, you may be right about the societal component, but I haven't seen anyone who was overly concerned about the Trellheim pirates, and I doubt that they're very pious!

Likely they aren't pious at all. They are likely also not obvious about it. Now, if the CoC is trying to change doctrine that would contradict the Writ before the reveal, that might cause problems.

McGuiness wrote:PeterZ, you may be right about the societal component, but I haven't seen anyone who was overly concerned about the Trellheim pirates, and I doubt that they're very pious!

Hi McGuiness,

Don't jump the cart too quickly.

The concept of atheism on Safehold, given all the evidence of the creation with 8 million witnesses to what the archangels did etc will take time to percolate through the society.

Ending the coercive powers of the inquisition seems to be something Maikel is willing to settle for as a minimum.

What other agreements are really necessary?

While there might some diplomatic wording to cover the CoGA's defeated jihad and dramatically reduced influence
NTM power, the truth will be plain to all, and enforcing the alliance's will in the territories it controls, ie Siddarmark, Silkiah, the BS, the eastern half of the KotTL, with strong influence in Dohlar and increasingly South Harchong post war, such as ending serfdom etc, all mean it can speak rather softly yet be heard throughout Safehold.

So feel free to add your own since what's below is hardly complete.

Since the CoC most certainly abides by the Holy Writ, its pilgrims must have safe access to the temple, which requires a military presence in Zion, and may involve alternating hours and the like to permit both to be safe in their time.

While I wouldn't be surprised if the CoGA attempted to withdraw the temple choirs during the reformist time slots, they would be condemned for faltering in their sacred duty of never letting the music stop were they to do so, thus I don't think they'll let it happen if they threaten it.

Given the alternating choir design of the temple, I suspect they could be switched between CoGA and reformists more easily than the CoGA might wish.

I don't think the alliance will insist on things like free trade, since smuggling will inevitably return and the markets Charis already will have will be more than enough for the higher prices of smuggling to be icing on the cake, while the ICN ensures the smugglers are safe until they reach their places to unload, while the range of the ICN's new guns and powder mean they'll provide protection even when they're outside the recognised national sea limits.

The inner circle, ie the alliance, won't try to reform the CoGA; that's the faithful's prerogative, if they wish it, which I suspect most won't.

I agree with Don that the inquisition will continue to operate with the local powers that be, NTM the rakurai attacks and SoS won't stop; however the national differences will mean increasing fracturing of what remains of the CoGA, so the inevitable next war will include some clashing between nations both claiming to be the true CoGA.

L

McGuiness wrote:

n7axw wrote:"Protection against heresy" is vastly over rated. I am an American, after all...

Don

Since a large number of Safeholdians are going to become atheists after the Big Reveal, which one member of the inner-circle already has, they won't accept any definition of "heresy." After all, you need a church to be heretical against, and they won't be members of one...

All the more reason why any agreement between the CoC and the CoGA needs to include protections from religion, and must limit the power of punishment within any religion to either excluding a person from participating in its activities for a time (ie. not attending mass, for example) or excommunication. That's all.

Let the civil authorities handle everything else, and toss the the Proscriptions on the ash heap of history, except for the ban on using electricity until the OBS is under human control. Enforce that by making the patent office a government entity, and any use of electricity illegal. RFC said that a guy experimenting with sparks in his basement won't bring down a Rakurai strike, but since the level of electricity that would pique the OBS' interest is unknown, better safe than sorry. The ban probably wouldn't have to last more than a generation or so, since the return of the archangels will probably lead to the shutdown of the OBS if Merlin can't figure out how to do it himself once the EoC captures the temple in the next couple of years.

I wonder if htere are any true believers in the inquisition, those who hate corruption in the church, wont simply use the crimes to blackmail priests, but instead activly pursue and punish those priests who break the laws. While not likely to be high up due to the current political structure, but with the war likely to open up positions of authority, true inquistors might appear. Why not start a line of contact to such priests nad feed them evidence they can act on? SO in the furute, they would be in a better position to clean up the church. They might never be allies to the church of charis, but they could atleast help weaken the current frame work of the church.

SYED wrote:I wonder if htere are any true believers in the inquisition, those who hate corruption in the church, wont simply use the crimes to blackmail priests, but instead activly pursue and punish those priests who break the laws. While not likely to be high up due to the current political structure, but with the war likely to open up positions of authority, true inquistors might appear. Why not start a line of contact to such priests nad feed them evidence they can act on? SO in the furute, they would be in a better position to clean up the church. They might never be allies to the church of charis, but they could atleast help weaken the current frame work of the church.

Thirsk's intendent, Maik I think his name is, seems to be in the category of "good inquisitor." How many others there might be is an unknown.

Don

Hi SYED,

Congratulations on passing the 1000 posts milestone!

I'm sorry I didn't notice it sooner.

Kudos for the excellent points.

Given human nature, it's almost a certainty that there are good inquisitors down at the local level trying to do their work according to the Holy Writ.

However Clyntahn has had 20 years to recruit and train his kind of inquisitors and torturers etc, so how many decent hearted folk could remain untouched or unswayed from that pollution and peer pressure is a very troubling problem.

I suspect RFC may reference them in the future as the inquisitors the locals went out of their way to protect and save, as opposed to the wicked who fled or will flee, these have the moral courage to stay at their assigned posts irrespective of the danger.

I'd expect the 'seijin network of spies' to brief or provide the advancing alliance forces with details denoting the differences between the two wherever the better show up or stand.

L

SYED wrote:I wonder if htere are any true believers in the inquisition, those who hate corruption in the church, wont simply use the crimes to blackmail priests, but instead activly pursue and punish those priests who break the laws. While not likely to be high up due to the current political structure, but with the war likely to open up positions of authority, true inquistors might appear. Why not start a line of contact to such priests nad feed them evidence they can act on? SO in the furute, they would be in a better position to clean up the church. They might never be allies to the church of charis, but they could atleast help weaken the current frame work of the church.

lyonheart wrote:Hi SYED,

Congratulations on passing the 1000 posts milestone!

I'm sorry I didn't notice it sooner.

Kudos for the excellent points.

Given human nature, it's almost a certainty that there are good inquisitors down at the local level trying to do their work according to the Holy Writ.

However Clyntahn has had 20 years to recruit and train his kind of inquisitors and torturers etc, so how many decent hearted folk could remain untouched or unswayed from that pollution and peer pressure is a very troubling problem.

I suspect RFC may reference them in the future as the inquisitors the locals went out of their way to protect and save, as opposed to the wicked who fled or will flee, these have the moral courage to stay at their assigned posts irrespective of the danger.

I'd expect the 'seijin network of spies' to brief or provide the advancing alliance forces with details denoting the differences between the two wherever the better show up or stand.

L

There may be two classes of "good" inquisitor: the ones taking care that people who should not suffer the Question or similar punishments do not; and those taking care that those that do (if anyone does, if anyone can), do get the Question etc. There may be some overlap, but I'd be a whole lot happier about approving of the first sort (the no-false-positives sort) than of the second sort (no false-negatives).

The first sort is also a lot more likely to have survived, quietly sparing who they can, when they can. Staiphan Maik is exactly this sort, and more credit to him. The second sort may have been too exposed or frustrated, having had to let all the scum in orange Clyntahn controls by blackmail live and prosper all these years. If he could stomach the deception though, he may be a source of information for the Hand of Kau-yung, so that others can mete out the justice on Safehold he cannot afford to without loss of life and position.

Alas, any Inquisitor secretly doing the right thing may have to have been so subtle about it, may have had to throw up too much of a smokescreen of obedience, that there may not be any locals or even SNARC's to vouch for them. Staiphan Maik may have at least the SNARC's to vouch for him, but will the Inner Circle be able to spare either the Intendant or the Admiral who "allowed" the Inquisition to take Gwylym Manthyr and his surviving crews on a death parade to Zion, maim and torture and finally kill them, from the brutal "justice" the ICN is aching to inflict on them, without revealing more than it can?

I certainly hope so, but I would not count on it.

JeffEngel wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi SYED,

Congratulations on passing the 1000 posts milestone!

I'm sorry I didn't notice it sooner.

Kudos for the excellent points.

Given human nature, it's almost a certainty that there are good inquisitors down at the local level trying to do their work according to the Holy Writ.

However Clyntahn has had 20 years to recruit and train his kind of inquisitors and torturers etc, so how many decent hearted folk could remain untouched or unswayed from that pollution and peer pressure is a very troubling problem.

I suspect RFC may reference them in the future as the inquisitors the locals went out of their way to protect and save, as opposed to the wicked who fled or will flee, these have the moral courage to stay at their assigned posts irrespective of the danger.

I'd expect the 'seijin network of spies' to brief or provide the advancing alliance forces with details denoting the differences between the two wherever the better show up or stand.

L

There may be two classes of "good" inquisitor: the ones taking care that people who should not suffer the Question or similar punishments do not; and those taking care that those that do (if anyone does, if anyone can), do get the Question etc. There may be some overlap, but I'd be a whole lot happier about approving of the first sort (the no-false-positives sort) than of the second sort (no false-negatives).

The first sort is also a lot more likely to have survived, quietly sparing who they can, when they can. Staiphan Maik is exactly this sort, and more credit to him. The second sort may have been too exposed or frustrated, having had to let all the scum in orange Clyntahn controls by blackmail live and prosper all these years. If he could stomach the deception though, he may be a source of information for the Hand of Kau-yung, so that others can mete out the justice on Safehold he cannot afford to without loss of life and position.

Alas, any Inquisitor secretly doing the right thing may have to have been so subtle about it, may have had to throw up too much of a smokescreen of obedience, that there may not be any locals or even SNARC's to vouch for them. Staiphan Maik may have at least the SNARC's to vouch for him, but will the Inner Circle be able to spare either the Intendant or the Admiral who "allowed" the Inquisition to take Gwylym Manthyr and his surviving crews on a death parade to Zion, maim and torture and finally kill them, from the brutal "justice" the ICN is aching to inflict on them, without revealing more than it can?

I certainly hope so, but I would not count on it.

Retribution for what happened in Gorath belongs in Zion, not Gorath. There wasn't anything that anyone in Gorath could have done to stop it. I hope that the alliance will recognize that before the time for accounting comes.

We know from textev, however, that Sharpfield is feeling pretty vindictve toward Thirsk...

Don

n7axw wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:Alas, any Inquisitor secretly doing the right thing may have to have been so subtle about it, may have had to throw up too much of a smokescreen of obedience, that there may not be any locals or even SNARC's to vouch for them. Staiphan Maik may have at least the SNARC's to vouch for him, but will the Inner Circle be able to spare either the Intendant or the Admiral who "allowed" the Inquisition to take Gwylym Manthyr and his surviving crews on a death parade to Zion, maim and torture and finally kill them, from the brutal "justice" the ICN is aching to inflict on them, without revealing more than it can?

I certainly hope so, but I would not count on it.

Retribution for what happened in Gorath belongs in Zion, not Gorath. There wasn't anything that anyone in Gorath could have done to stop it. I hope that the alliance will recognize that before the time for accounting comes.

We know from textev, however, that Sharpfield is feeling pretty vindictve toward Thirsk...

Don

Spoiler, technically -





Yes, and I don't think that's an idiosyncratic attitude. For that matter, it may be taken so much for granted that Thirsk's chief of staff Khapahr shoots him dead when the ICN is about to take them prisoner, just to spare him the tortures the vengeful Charisians are expected to inflict in reprisal.

I share the same hope, but the prep work to spare Thirsk hasn't been done in the fleet in the Gulf of Dohlar. Sharpfield would not have that attitude if he were apprised of Thirsk's actual role - a desire to win, absolutely, to remove and out-do the single successful Temple admiral, but not to punish him for the atrocities he did his own level, if inadequate, best to stop. Sharpfield's the senior officer in those waters; if there were any plans to spare Thirsk retribution for Clyntahn's sins in Gorath, they'd be in Sharpfield's head at a minimum, along with their background.

So while I'm hoping for justice there, I'm not expecting it. Thirsk would need to be saved from the ICN almost as much from the Inquisition.

I doubt that Sharpfield will be acting arbitrarily or commit any atrocities however he might be feeling. If he and Thirsk do meet, I imagine his attitude will be "frostily correct."

Don