HQ Snippet #21 3-27-15

PeterZ wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi PeterZ,

snip

** Go back to Maikel's sermon in Manchyr; he's rather direct in stating the CoGA has obviously failed in God's charge to teach and protect his children, thus invalidating it as God's church.

No where does he address any such dogma as you've suggested here.

There is no textev in the Holy Writ that the existence of the CoGA is fundamental or crucial to any Safeholdian's salvation; certainly we haven't heard that argument made by the Go4, even in their private thoughts, or vocalized by anyone else, and no evident attempt by the CoC or reformists to counter any such claim by CoGA propagandists.**

snip
L

http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6604&p=175006&hilit=God%27s+plan+for+safehold#p175006

I recommend that you reread this snippet. Further, I recommend that you consider what Merlin's description really means with respect to the dogma you discount so thoroughly.

Just in case I screwed this up, its snippet #15 of HFQ.

Merlin states explicitly that the pre Armageddon Reef Writ describes the behavior God requires to go to Heaven or in other words to be saved. That describes a doctrine of salvation through works.

Further, he describes the shift in the Writ stemming from the Books of Schuler and Chihiro. That the Inquisition is given the brutal iron fisted tools to compel Saffehold to follow God's Plan. However, the authority to compel Safeholdians to follow God's Plan for Safehold existed in the original Writ.

This passage from snippet #15 reads to me that the CoGA must keep Safehold within certain parameters in order for its citizens to have a chance at salvation. That suggests to me that Safehold society must do certain things and avoid doing others for ANYONE on Safehold to have a chance to be saved. This is the doctrine I described as societal salvation. This was part of the original Writ. The Books of Shueler and Chihiro simply added the vicious tools the Inquisition uses in the stories.

As to the rest, feel free to believe whatever you wish. Regarding my understanding of CoGA doctrine, I believe I understand the implications of the text much better than you. Again, I may be wrong, but am more comfortable following my logic than yours.

Hi PeterZ and Lyonheart,

First I want to say that I have the utmost respect for both of you, both as individuals and as posters on the forum. But could it be that neither of you are doing a very good job of reading the other guy's posts? I have at least some sense that you are talking past each other, at least somewhat.

Lyonheart, there is more than adequate textev for the assertion that the COGA does indeed teach that believing its doctrine its way is necessary for salvation. Think about Mikael's conversation with Irys when she was having her little epiphany as one example. Peter is not wrong about that.

Peter, I was raised in a very doctrinally rigid church. But even in that kind of situation, there were and are people raising questions. I can scarcely believe that it would be different on Safehold. Not everybody is going to take the dogmas with equal seriousness no matter how much the church asserts that as the keeper of men's souls, they had better tow the line. They wouldn't be human if they did.

There is no question but what the good people loyal to the COGA are in for a series of shocks. The first, of course, is to learn to live with the reality that the COGA is no longer unanimously regarded as the keeper of men and women's souls. There is going to be lots of denial as people seek to avoid to coming to grips with that. Some people will never come to grips with it. It will be left to their children who no longer remember the old reality except for second hand to raise the questions calling to dogma into doubt.

The second, of course, is the Great Reveal which will leave a lot of people even in Old Charis struggling to come to grips with that. In fact, as I understand it, there is at least one very destructive war looming on the horizon before all of this is put to rest.

The way RFC has set this up, I don't really know how it is all going to play out. But for sure, there aren't going to be any love fests or soft landings here on Safehold soon.

Don

Don,

I never said there would be a soft landing. Only that Duchairn would offer to negotiate because he likely does believe Safehold's salvation comes through the CoGA. That belief would drive him to avoid losing control of the CoGA to outside forces. And just like Nynian shades the truth to the Senior Keeper in snippet 22, so must the Inner Circle for mainlanders. So, if Duchairn offers to negotiat with preconditions that are amenable to the Allies, the Allies will accept negotiations. What happens next is known only to RFC.

Whether Duchairn can keep the Vicars in line or gut the Inquisition is uncertain to me. That Duchairn will honestly try to do both is absolutely certain.

PeterZ wrote:Don,

I never said there would be a soft landing. Only that Duchairn would offer to negotiate because he likely does believe Safehold's salvation comes through the CoGA. That belief would drive him to avoid losing control of the CoGA to outside forces. And just like Nynian shades the truth to the Senior Keeper in snippet 22, so must the Inner Circle for mainlanders. So, if Duchairn offers to negotiat with preconditions that are amenable to the Allies, the Allies will accept negotiations. What happens next is known only to RFC.

Whether Duchairn can keep the Vicars in line or gut the Inquisition is uncertain to me. That Duchairn will honestly try to do both is absolutely certain.

Hi Peter,

This is where we disagree between the two of us. I have to agree with Lyonheart that Duchairn is in no position to negotiate anything. There is no reason for the allies to negotiate anything and even if there were, the Clyntahnistas who will control the inquisition should Clyntahn get popped certainly won't let him.

I give Duchairn a less than 30% chance of survival once things start coming unglued.

Don

Don,

As I said I don't know if Duchairn survives. My point was that should he survive, he would also have succeeded in gutting the Clyntahnistas.

I believe the work crews Rhobair has been organizing will play a part in this. They don't need to fight warriors after all, just torturers. Major Phandis will help organize the needed weapons.

Will this be a guaranteed success? No. It will simply be a possibility. If he succeeds, he will have the crowd behind him to cow the Vicars. Should Magwair acquiesce, they have the resources to secure their position regardless of what the Vicars want. I do believe that the combination of the Zion citizenry, Magwair's soldiers and a sound theological argument will persuade most of the Vicars to acquiesce.

Again, I am only saying Duchairn may control the reigns of power after Clyntahn dies. If he does he offers to negotiate.

n7axw wrote:
Hi Peter,

This is where we disagree between the two of us. I have to agree with Lyonheart that Duchairn is in no position to negotiate anything. There is no reason for the allies to negotiate anything and even if there were, the Clyntahnistas who will control the inquisition should Clyntahn get popped certainly won't let him.

I give Duchairn a less than 30% chance of survival once things start coming unglued.

Don

PeterZ wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi PeterZ,

snip

** Go back to Maikel's sermon in Manchyr; he's rather direct in stating the CoGA has obviously failed in God's charge to teach and protect his children, thus invalidating it as God's church.

No where does he address any such dogma as you've suggested here.

There is no textev in the Holy Writ that the existence of the CoGA is fundamental or crucial to any Safeholdian's salvation; certainly we haven't heard that argument made by the Go4, even in their private thoughts, or vocalized by anyone else, and no evident attempt by the CoC or reformists to counter any such claim by CoGA propagandists.**

snip
L

http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6604&p=175006&hilit=God%27s+plan+for+safehold#p175006

I recommend that you reread this snippet. Further, I recommend that you consider what Merlin's description really means with respect to the dogma you discount so thoroughly.

Just in case I screwed this up, its snippet #15 of HFQ.

Merlin states explicitly that the pre Armageddon Reef Writ describes the behavior God requires to go to Heaven or in other words to be saved. That describes a doctrine of salvation through works.

Are you thinking of something else, perhaps? Because in this snippet, he's saying people are to follow the rules "because those rules are there for their own good and because they want to do what God wishes for them to do, want to live the lives He’s ordained for them." There isn't an or-else-hell in there, either for individuals who disobey or for the whole bunch if anyone disobeys.

That snippet at least simply doesn't address salvation, individual or corporate, by works or grace or belief. I'm sure it's elsewhere in Safehold's theology, but if we're going to narrow down the variety, this snippet isn't grounds for it. (Well - perhaps very, very weak negative grounds that it's a non-issue in Safehold theology by omission. But meh.)

Further, he describes the shift in the Writ stemming from the Books of Schuler and Chihiro. That the Inquisition is given the brutal iron fisted tools to compel Saffehold to follow God's Plan. However, the authority to compel Safeholdians to follow God's Plan for Safehold existed in the original Writ.

Granted, probably at least. But without the this-worldly or-else of the Book of Schueller, the nature of that compulsion is still open. Certainly obeying (e.g.) Pasquale comes with clear this-worldly rewards and disobeying him punishments - eat wrong, get sick - so there's an element of compulsion there. But it's not in the hands of the Church at all.

This passage from snippet #15 reads to me that the CoGA must keep Safehold within certain parameters in order for its citizens to have a chance at salvation. That suggests to me that Safehold society must do certain things and avoid doing others for ANYONE on Safehold to have a chance to be saved. This is the doctrine I described as societal salvation. This was part of the original Writ. The Books of Shueler and Chihiro simply added the vicious tools the Inquisition uses in the stories.

I think you're reading that in from elsewhere than this snippet (#15, that is). I'm not going to say it's not to be found in several large books, but it's not in evidence here.

We disagree, Jeff.

The Writ is God's Will for Safehold. Nynian says as much in the next snippet. Merlin asserts the Writ establishes an authoritarian Church. God's plan requires that the Church maintain conditions so that Safeholdians can live the life that will merit salvation. Salvation depends on the CoGA's activities on behalf of Safehold.

Snippet 15 establishes the authoritarian elements existed in the original Writ and not just from the Books of Chihiro ans Schuler.

Hi PeterZ,

Thank you for the link, and kudos for it working.

Thank you Don for trying to patch things up, and thanks for your excellent points.

PeterZ, I generally respect you and your posts, as you know, and that respect is why I've struggled to understand what you see as self evident, because I don't.

To me, the self-contradictions make it nonsense.

However to elucidate further; I don't think the issue of the CoGA's being crucial in Safehold's salvation is so self evident or straightforward, ie black and white, as you do.

If it was, the CoC should never have had a chance, yet its been widely accepted everywhere its had a fair hearing; that speaks volumes to me that it isn't so distinct, so unmistakable or undeniable a heresy as you do.

If it is so overt and palpable a perversion and contradiction of God's will, then its a complete contradiction for you to have Rhobair so willing to reconcile the CoC into the the CoGA family, if not recognise it as an equal way to salvation for Safeholdians.

I've been trying to get you to recognise the contradictions between your desired themes, but you keep repeating the same old stuff.

Secondly, I don't think Rhobair can offer or provide any reforms let alone negotiate with the glaringly heretical alliance [as you interpret snippet #15], assuming he does offer reforms, without rebellion not just from the inquisition that he, according to you, fully intends to castrate, but all those less spiritually reformist or tolerant, assuming Rhobair is as reformist as you assume.

Probably ~98% of the remaining vicarate and CoGA clergy will be opposed, and that such turmoil if not a civil war will result if he tries to treat with the plainly perverse alliance, that such will negate any such attempt at negotiations or any theoretical agreement reached; thus effectively leaving the alliance to continue to achieve its declared war aims [essentially dethroning the Go4] by its military superiority, until what remains of the vicarate or Go4 in the temple acquiesce if not surrender.

Which will still probably be a death sentence for those who treated with heretics under any circumstances, by the lights of some of the many right wingers, certainly including all the remaining inquisition secret agents.

Again remember what happened to Mathias Ertzberger.

In reference to Snippet #15:

It's beautiful in the patience, understanding and tolerance Merlin and Nimue show to Sandaria, and I suspect Sandaria is watching Merlin and Nynian right now through the SNARC's [with Nahrmahn and OWL in control], and I won't be surprised if Olivia doesn't play a role in convincing her, if only via suggestions to Nahrmahn in their many private conversations, although I think it will be more direct, one on one.

With regards to Safehold's salvation only through the CoGA:

Most major religions require you to do it their way, that's almost a given; but there appear to be some variety of loopholes or the CoC would be a noticeable non-starter, notwithstanding the vicarate and CoGA's obvious corruption.

That is, it'd be rejected by everyone, including all literate Charisians etc, who see and understand what you see in snippet #15; but they didn't, they haven't, and I don't think they will, because its isn't as clear cut to them as it is to you.

Evidently Maikel disagrees with you, or he is an obvious fraud in presenting the CoC as a legitimate pathway to salvation according to the rules of Safehold, when according to you it is such clear and conspicuous heresy.

Therefore Paityr among others should have denounced him immediately back in BSRA without even thinking about it, but they didn't; so they apparently disagree with you as well as to what the Holy Writ says about the CoGA being central to Safehold's salvation.

Rather in contrast, they evidently find Maikel's argument in Manchyr cathedral among others to be quite compelling.

Rhobair definitely doesn't see Maikel as perpetrating a indisputable fraud or blasphemy, if he did he wouldn't EVER consider contacting such an evil evident heretic as you think he will, let alone treat with and try to find some sort of accommodation with so glaring an abomination, as you say he will.

Rather from the textev, Rhobair seems to consider Maikel's theology to be an acceptable and even respectable interpretation of the Holy Writ, or something close enough to it according to you; possibly seeing Maikel's doctrine as simply being a refusal to compel while recognizing the church's authority and power to do so.

This implies there might be other interpretations or theological approaches that may be quite acceptable and familiar to the vicarate, some possibly repeated or even maintained over the centuries by various 'schools of thought' which are known and kept within the temple [ie vicarate etc] by a 'gentleman's' agreement not to upset the general congregations, by discussing them more openly, all bound by the strictures.

Although, given the ways Terran theological training has been done over the millennia here, using contradictions heretical mirrors and blasphemies as teaching examples and tools; Safehold could have developed some strange theology surprisingly quickly without the inquisition riding herd, which may have been the reason for it to be originally so much more focused on the vicarate than the common congregations.

Feel free to feel comfortable with what you will, it still doesn't make sense to me.

L


[quote="PeterZ"][quote="lyonheart"]Hi PeterZ,

snip

** Go back to Maikel's sermon in Manchyr; he's rather direct in stating the CoGA has obviously failed in God's charge to teach and protect his children, thus invalidating it as God's church.

No where does he address any such dogma as you've suggested here.

There is no textev in the Holy Writ that the existence of the CoGA is fundamental or crucial to any Safeholdian's salvation; certainly we haven't heard that argument made by the Go4, even in their private thoughts, or vocalized by anyone else, and no evident attempt by the CoC or reformists to counter any such claim by CoGA propagandists.**

snip
L[/quote]

[url]http://forums.davidweber.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6604&p=175006&hilit=God%27s+plan+for+safehold#p175006[/url]

I recommend that you reread this snippet. Further, I recommend that you consider what Merlin's description really means with respect to the dogma you discount so thoroughly.

Just in case I screwed this up, its snippet #15 of HFQ.

Merlin states explicitly that the pre Armageddon Reef Writ describes the behavior God requires to go to Heaven or in other words to be saved. That describes a doctrine of salvation through works.

Further, he describes the shift in the Writ stemming from the Books of Schuler and Chihiro. That the Inquisition is given the brutal iron fisted tools to compel Saffehold to follow God's Plan. However, the authority to compel Safeholdians to follow God's Plan for Safehold existed in the original Writ.

This passage from snippet #15 reads to me that the CoGA must keep Safehold within certain parameters in order for its citizens to have a chance at salvation. That suggests to me that Safehold society must do certain things and avoid doing others for ANYONE on Safehold to have a chance to be saved. This is the doctrine I described as societal salvation. This was part of the original Writ. The Books of Shueler and Chihiro simply added the vicious tools the Inquisition uses in the stories.

As to the rest, feel free to believe whatever you wish. Regarding my understanding of CoGA doctrine, I believe I understand the implications of the text much better than you. Again, I may be wrong, but am more comfortable following my logic than yours.[/quote]

Hi PeterZ,

Perhaps.

Given the evident war aims of the alliance are primarily ending the hellish and abominable rule of the Go4, we have discussed on previous threads whether Rhobair is intent on sacrificing the Go4 including himself.

OTOH, we have almost nothing on what reforms if any besides gutting the inquisition, Duchairn favors.

He apparently respects Maikel's doctrines, which implies that like the circle he accepts that reconciliation is impossible from the CoC side, even if they'd managed to take over the vicarate; which implies the circle and Rhobair see the CoGA tent as being larger than what you read into snippet #15.

From the textev, he may simply try to fight the jihad without eagerly accepting all the innovations Clyntahn has approved, trusting in God to overcome the CoGA military inferiority.

L

PeterZ wrote:Don,

I never said there would be a soft landing. Only that Duchairn would offer to negotiate because he likely does believe Safehold's salvation comes through the CoGA. That belief would drive him to avoid losing control of the CoGA to outside forces. And just like Nynian shades the truth to the Senior Keeper in snippet 22, so must the Inner Circle for mainlanders. So, if Duchairn offers to negotiat with preconditions that are amenable to the Allies, the Allies will accept negotiations. What happens next is known only to RFC.

Whether Duchairn can keep the Vicars in line or gut the Inquisition is uncertain to me. That Duchairn will honestly try to do both is absolutely certain.

lyonheart wrote:
From the textev, he may simply try to fight the jihad without eagerly accepting all the innovations Clyntahn has approved, trusting in God to overcome the CoGA military inferiority.

L

Hi Lyonheart,

I'm not sure I get this last sentence. Duchairn has never been the roadblock to innovation. Clyntahn has despite his vow to do whatever it takes to win. Primarily, he dislikes allowing anything that's not his own idea because of his preoccupation with keeping power in his own hands.

Duchairn, on the other hand, has been working with Magwair and seems to be doing as much as he can to facilitate what needs to be done. We've not heard much from him either way on innovation, but it's not his bailiwick. But he's certainly been a better team player than Clyntahn.

Don

Hi Don,

We have textev in LaMA and MTaT etc that Duchairn doesn't like Clyntahn approving or providing dispensations for violating the proscriptions [in order to win the jihad], which Rhobair seems to still believe in rather strongly.

We haven't seen him thrash out that apparent conflict in his thoughts yet, but RFC has dropped the hints to warn readers that Rhobair may not be all that some think him to be.

L

n7axw wrote:

lyonheart wrote:
From the textev, he may simply try to fight the jihad without eagerly accepting all the innovations Clyntahn has approved, trusting in God to overcome the CoGA military inferiority.

L

Hi Lyonheart,

I'm not sure I get this last sentence. Duchairn has never been the roadblock to innovation. Clyntahn has despite his vow to do whatever it takes to win. Primarily, he dislikes allowing anything that's not his own idea because of his preoccupation with keeping power in his own hands.

Duchairn, on the other hand, has been working with Magwair and seems to be doing as much as he can to facilitate what needs to be done. We've not heard much from him either way on innovation, but it's not his bailiwick. But he's certainly been a better team player than Clyntahn.

Don