GOD EXISTS

The E wrote:Also, claiming that I can't know how I arrived at my personal philosophies, that I am incapable of identifying the philosophical tracks that led to it, that's a bit (presumptuous), isn't it?

no. that’s fact, not even a trained psychologist knows everything about himself, no-one does. The presumption is on your part that somehow you do.

The E wrote:How do you know that the universe was created through an act of a conscious entity?

If there isn’t then there is no hope and no reason. No matter what we do or what anyone else does, we will all be dead and this planet destroyed on the blink of an eye, so there is no use in anything

The E wrote:So by virtue of him being more powerful, he is no longer to be held to the same sort of morality that you or I are?

not by YOU! He is held to a higher standard by himself. He doesn’t need YOU to tell him how to behave.

The E wrote:Funny, then, that this supposed omniscient morality has been redefined over and over again over the years. Turns out, god's really bad at enforcing his views.

No, men who for their own purpose, usually greed, have lied and claimed different. The truth never was.

The E wrote:Except that, as far as I am concerned, god never said anything by virtue of total existence failure. The rules you attribute to god were made by humans.

”as far as your concerned” doesn’t make it so for the rest of the universe (& yes that holds both ways – but I’m not saying – all that matters is what God said) if you can’t figure that out that’s your problem.

The E wrote:No, you believe there is one. Bit of a difference.

God require neither your belief or approval to exist.
As far as other cultures, muslim terrorists, Aztec “priests” murdering people etc… the bible says “you will know them by their actions” these are not equal beliefs. Their actions show them to not be.

Daryl wrote:Chilling thought, maybe one of the old vengeful gods is the real deal, has been distracted, and is about to send us all to the fire for lack of sacrifices?

If this were the case and they got “distracted” then they aren’t omniscient and therefore not “Gods” just (as E says) “more powerful creatures” and they can go $%&# it!

The E wrote:...and that we must bow down before him?

Nobody said anything about you having to bow down. Love RAH, great writer, favorite before DW came out. As for “the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery…” this is not so. For those who actually read. God doesn’t want “saccharine adoration” of His creatures, or insincere “flattery”. Do you honestly think that someone can lie, cheat, steal and murder for 50 years. Then have some priest called to his death bed. Say “I’m sorry ” and go to heaven. No, you can sin and get to heaven, but it requires true remorse, truly being sorry and truly loving God to do so. The bible itself states that “if you are lukewarm I will spew you out”. God only wants true love from his creations. The analogy of the dog or cat was a little off. It’s more like, if your toenail is ingrown, would you just say “oh well, it can do what it wants”, no you would have it cut out and thrown away. If your arm were gangrenous would you say “well it has the right to do what it wants?” no you’d have a doctor cut it off. Yet you would be sad and feel the loss of your arm. You would do everything you could beforehand to save it. Wouldn’t you. God is doing the same thing with us. We are all part of God “there is nothing that is not of God” we are all part of him and, as your hand should obey you, you should obey him. That is what the bible says. God doesn’t go around smiting people anymore because we are more sophisticated than in Moses or Noah’s time and he wants us to find him on our own. That's why I have no photograph or voicmail recording for you.

You don't understand. It isn't that is no definitive moral authority. Its that there can be no moral authority that transcends the individual. There is only compulsion.

The E wrote:

PeterZ wrote:No one argues religion is essential to morality. The issue is absent a Creator, there can be no objective morality. The jihadis moral code is equal to that of a pacifist, Hindu or a human sacrificing Aztec.

And the absence of a definitive authority on moral matters is bad how? Not like we actually had one at any point in the past 10000 years.

Respectfully, I for one do not understand what is being discussed here, nor for that matter harbor any real importance to it. Being a practical agnostic, I do not know either way. I just do not know.

Physical, measurable, repeatable, imperical scientific proof is needed. When/if that is ever done, there will be needed a whole lot of proof. Then we can create a theory. Until that happens, I will take most of the above as faith and not fact. HB of CJ (old coot)

HB- I respect your right to agree or disagree but could you please define agnostic.

Peter - I wish I had the capacity to express myself within these forums as you have. Very envious!

Daryl - I am sorry for what happened to you. I invite you to share the story because I feel like you sharing the story will allow you to forgive those that had hurt you.

Respectfuly. Agnostic to me means that I do not know if there is a God. Just me. HB of CJ (old coot)

MAD-4A wrote:

The E wrote:Also, claiming that I can't know how I arrived at my personal philosophies, that I am incapable of identifying the philosophical tracks that led to it, that's a bit (presumptuous), isn't it?

no. that’s fact, not even a trained psychologist knows everything about himself, no-one does. The presumption is on your part that somehow you do.

Granted. Still, this doesn't mean that there's a god out there that has an omniscient viewpoint.

The E wrote:How do you know that the universe was created through an act of a conscious entity?

If there isn’t then there is no hope and no reason. No matter what we do or what anyone else does, we will all be dead and this planet destroyed on the blink of an eye, so there is no use in anything

Does that frighten you? Are you afraid that the only judgment you will ever get is that of your peers?

The E wrote:So by virtue of him being more powerful, he is no longer to be held to the same sort of morality that you or I are?

not by YOU! He is held to a higher standard by himself. He doesn’t need YOU to tell him how to behave.

Why? I get it, you want to follow the "correct" morality, but how do you know that what you're doing is the right thing, absent concrete guidance? What if any of the other religions have it right and you got it wrong?

The E wrote:Funny, then, that this supposed omniscient morality has been redefined over and over again over the years. Turns out, god's really bad at enforcing his views.

No, men who for their own purpose, usually greed, have lied and claimed different. The truth never was.

Right. Point me to a single denomination that is clean of that influence.

The E wrote:Except that, as far as I am concerned, god never said anything by virtue of total existence failure. The rules you attribute to god were made by humans.

”as far as your concerned” doesn’t make it so for the rest of the universe (& yes that holds both ways – but I’m not saying – all that matters is what God said) if you can’t figure that out that’s your problem.

So you ARE saying that your view is the only correct one?

The E wrote:No, you believe there is one. Bit of a difference.

God require neither your belief or approval to exist.

Kinda think he does.

As far as other cultures, muslim terrorists, Aztec “priests” murdering people etc… the bible says “you will know them by their actions” these are not equal beliefs. Their actions show them to not be.

True. But again, how do you know they got it wrong and you got it right?

Daryl wrote:Chilling thought, maybe one of the old vengeful gods is the real deal, has been distracted, and is about to send us all to the fire for lack of sacrifices?

If this were the case and they got “distracted” then they aren’t omniscient and therefore not “Gods” just (as E says) “more powerful creatures” and they can go $%&# it!

And your evidence for your god being omniscient is what? The PR put out by his prophets?

The E wrote:...and that we must bow down before him?

Nobody said anything about you having to bow down. Love RAH, great writer, favorite before DW came out. As for “the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery…” this is not so. For those who actually read. God doesn’t want “saccharine adoration” of His creatures, or insincere “flattery”.

Doesn't he, now. Then why insist on all these things?

Do you honestly think that someone can lie, cheat, steal and murder for 50 years. Then have some priest called to his death bed. Say “I’m sorry ” and go to heaven. No, you can sin and get to heaven, but it requires true remorse, truly being sorry and truly loving God to do so. The bible itself states that “if you are lukewarm I will spew you out”. God only wants true love from his creations. The analogy of the dog or cat was a little off. It’s more like, if your toenail is ingrown, would you just say “oh well, it can do what it wants”, no you would have it cut out and thrown away. If your arm were gangrenous would you say “well it has the right to do what it wants?” no you’d have a doctor cut it off. Yet you would be sad and feel the loss of your arm. You would do everything you could beforehand to save it. Wouldn’t you. God is doing the same thing with us. We are all part of God “there is nothing that is not of God” we are all part of him and, as your hand should obey you, you should obey him. That is what the bible says. God doesn’t go around smiting people anymore because we are more sophisticated than in Moses or Noah’s time and he wants us to find him on our own. That's why I have no photograph or voicmail recording for you.

Strange how this increased sophistication comes with a decreased enthusiasm about worshipping this god of yours.

PeterZ you say "You don't understand. It isn't that is no definitive moral authority. Its that there can be no moral authority that transcends the individual. There is only compulsion."

All my adult life I've tried to do what I believe is "the right thing". Probably because of being mistreated by the church in my formative years I don't take well to compulsion. It did eventually allow me to have a successful career as the more senior I got the less idiots I had trying to get me to do things I disagreed with.

So I believe that I have a reputation as a good person and a straight shooter, and that came from within not from anyone else's compulsion. I follow the excellent creed of "Do unto others etc" not because of the church, but in spite of it, as I saw very little of that.

Daryl,

Wonderful! As I said humans have an acute appreciation for morality. We all search for those objective standards in our lives. We recognize those truths and they resonate within us in a deep and meaningful way. Belief in God is not a prerequisite.

EDIT: Grammar

The E wrote:Does that frighten you? Are you afraid that the only judgment you will ever get is that of your peers?

Not in the least, because I know it isn’t so. (& if not we’ll both be dead, so who cares?)

The E wrote:Why? …

You seem to think you (a limited finite creature on a limited finite ball of mud) can judge your own morality and keep yourself to it, yet somehow an omnipotent being can’t? That makes no sense.

The E wrote:Right. Point me to a single denomination that is clean of that influence.

They are all run by men and thus have all been tainted by mans imperfection.

The E wrote:So you ARE saying that your view is the only correct one?

I’m saying that there can only be (by definition) one correct view, whatever that is. If I didn’t believe mine was the correct one then (again by definition) It would not be mine.

The E wrote:Kinda think he does.

Well if that’s how it works, I guess you need my approval and belief to exist? Well then sorry, I refuse to believe in you so you don’t exist

The E wrote:True. But again, how do you know they got it wrong and you got it right?

As I said – by their own actions.

The E wrote:And your evidence for your god being omniscient is what? The PR put out by his prophets?

No – by definition. For God to have created the universe, he exists outside its limits. He created everything (every pico-erg of energy), they all come from his existence. Ever cell in your body is from the energy of God. We know that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So every pico-erg of energy in the entire universe (including those of Sentience) had to come from somewhere. Therefore the original source of the energy that the universe was formed from had to have Sentience as-well.

The E wrote:Doesn't he, now. Then why insist on all these things?

He doesn’t, as stated earlier, the “Church” (whatever religion) insists on it. If you frighten people into being afraid not to attend then you can coerce them to pay tithes. It’s a money scam run by all the religions. So if you don’t truly what to believe in God and don’t truly want to know him, then don’t waste your time or money trying to buy your way into Heaven. It won’t work no-matter what some priest-with-his-hand-out says. That is a lie of man.

The E wrote:Strange how this increased sophistication comes with a decreased enthusiasm about worshipping this god of yours.

No the increased sophistication came with an increase in knowledge. Which was also accompanied by an increase in lies. Drawing people away from the truth.

MAD-4A wrote:

The E wrote:True. But again, how do you know they got it wrong and you got it right?

As I said – by their own actions.

So because the actions by the followers of other religions (and thus other moral frameworks) are wrong in your moral framework, their moral framework is unquestionably wrong? Geez, what an objective viewpoint you have there!

The E wrote:And your evidence for your god being omniscient is what? The PR put out by his prophets?

No – by definition. For God to have created the universe, he exists outside its limits. He created everything (every pico-erg of energy), they all come from his existence. Ever cell in your body is from the energy of God. We know that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. So every pico-erg of energy in the entire universe (including those of Sentience) had to come from somewhere. Therefore the original source of the energy that the universe was formed from had to have Sentience as-well.

But how do you know that YOUR god is that source?