Control Missile for shipboard launched missiles

Vince,

Your numbers look good. But what happens if the pursuing ship transits to the Beta band when it sees the freighter transit out of the Alpha? Suddenly, instead of 22.5 light-seconds apart, they are now 1.8 light-seconds apart.

That of course depends on the pursuing ship having its hyper generator ready to transit, which poses some additional complications to the scenario. But if the pursuing ship did get its generator ready, it would be very close to the freighter.

Oh, one other comment, Vince. Freighters generally drop to near zero velocity before transiting upward or downward, to save wear and tear on the nodes. So normally a freighter would not carry velocity when they jump into hyperspace. But if the freighter is deliberately using this round-about route to avoid a suspected ambush, it is reasonable to suppose that they would transit at speed. So this is plausible.

kzt wrote:

Vince wrote:
After the 30 minute stern chase, the SLN Rampart-class DD raider is now 23.9 light seconds distant from the merchantman. The merchantman is physically out of SDM range ( ~ 22.5 light seconds), as well as the maximum effective targeting range in hyper ( ~ 20 light seconds maximum) from the raider. The merchantman immediately translates into the beta band and escapes from the pursuing raider.

not quite

A) in order for this to be stern chase the DD has to be inside the hyper limit, which would be silly.

B) the DD immediately translates to beta, is now inside SDM range and fires.

The raider is in hyper, in the alpha band, and is just outside the star's hyper limit.

For A) The hyper limit applies only to normal space. You can be inside a hyper limit, in the alpha band, and as long as you don't attempt to translate to normal space, you apparently don't have any problems.*

For B) The raider translating to the beta band, is now inside SDM range and fires. I'm going to assume that you meant the raider has his hyper generator at Routine Readiness. While the tactical section is attempting to refine the best possible guess** of where the merchantman is, engineering brings the hyper generator to Stand-By Readiness. Then when the tactical section has the best guess** of where the merchantman is, the best guess** of its course, and the best guess** of where it will translate to the beta band and the best guess** of where it will reappear relative to the raider, when the raider translates to the beta band.

Further assumptions: The raider does not change position from the area in the alpha bands where the least time course from the planet intersects the hyper limit of the star, other than to move up to the beta band and down to the alpha band.

With the tactical section's best guesses, the raider translates to beta band ahead of the merchantman and lies in wait.

The merchantman translates to the beta band.

The distance ratio of the alpha band to the beta band is ~ 12.4:1, so the raider sees the merchantman reappear in the beta band at a range of ~ 3.8 light seconds, or ~ 4.2 light seconds if the merchantman was running with no safety margin on the inertial compensator.

Either way, the raider is well inside SDM range, allowing maximum power level impeller drive missile shots, but not very far outside of energy range. The range is so low that the conditions in hyper don't create distortion, and the tactical section can successfully target the merchantman. Since you said the raider fires, the merchantman is blown away.

I see two possible problems with this approach:

First, the SLN raider has just blown away a merchantman that was very nearly in energy range (although it would be moving away from the raider). With the Solarian League desperately needing merchantman to move cargoes, the raider probably has instructions to capture the merchantmen it encounters wherever possible. This should be workable though.

Second, the problem with this lurk in hyper and engage targets exiting the system by either capturing or destroying them runs into the problem of lack of intelligence. The raider might see incoming ships quickly dropping through the alpha band on their way to normal space, but it is unlikely that it will be able to get details of the ships. Eventually the raider will find out the hard way that they have just Mugged the Monster, because the merchantman they are in SDM range of is actually a GA warship, leading to a Really Bad Day for the raider, because of Murphy's Law of Combat #1.

Examples of Mugging the Monster in the Honorverse where a warship plays the role of a merchantman are quite numerous (many examples of a raider threatning a 'helpless merchantman' in Honor Among Enemies, but other books have examples as well).

* Note: The only information we have on attempting to translate inside the hyper limit comes from Echoes of Honor where it states if you attempt to drop to normal space from the alpha band, as long as you are in the outer 20% of the distance from the hyper limit, you just can't get into normal space. If you are further in, Bad Things happen if you attempt to translate to normal space from the alpha band.

No information has been given in the books or infodumps on just passing through the hyper limit of a star, while in hyper (in any band) without attempting any translation, either up or down (other than the previous mentioned attempt to translate to normal space from the alpha band. The situation just has not come up, so it hasn't been addressed. I'm guessing that as long as you don't attempt a translation, either up or down, that it doesn't lead to Bad Things happening.

** And will be a guess where the merchantman is because the merchantman is inside

the "bubble" may be thought of as the region in which an observer can tell something is out there and very roughly where.

because the raider will detect the merchantman at 25.6 light seconds, which is out of range because

Exact, precise observations and measurements are all but impossible above ranges of 5,000,000 to 6,000,000 km.

SWM wrote:Oh, one other comment, Vince. Freighters generally drop to near zero velocity before transiting upward or downward, to save wear and tear on the nodes. So normally a freighter would not carry velocity when they jump into hyperspace. But if the freighter is deliberately using this round-about route to avoid a suspected ambush, it is reasonable to suppose that they would transit at speed. So this is plausible.

I don't remember reading any examples of this, except in In Enemy Hands, where the rest of the convoy stopped in the alpha band, awaiting the report of the single warship that went in directly to check out the system. Do you have any examples?

This quote seems to imply that merchant ships, as well as warships do make translation while underway:

More Than Honor, The Universe of Honor Harrington, (1) Background (General) wrote:Since .3 c (approx. 89,907.6 km./sec.) was the maximum velocity at which an "upward" translation into hyper-space could be made, the maximum initial velocity in hyper-space was .024 c (or 7,192.6 km./sec.). Making translation at speeds as high as .3 c was a rough experience and not particularly safe. The loss rate at .3 c was over 10%; dropping translation velocity to .23 c virtually eliminated ship losses in initial translation, and, since the difference in initial hyper velocity was less than 1,700 KPS, most captains routinely made translation at the lower speed. Even today, only military commanders in emergency conditions will make upward translation at .3 c. There is no safe upper speed on "downward" translations. That is, a ship may translate from hyper-space to normal-space at any hyper-space velocity without risking destruction. (Which is not to say that the crews enjoy the experience or that it does not impose enormous wear and tear on hyper generators.) Further, translation from one hyper band to a higher band (see below) may be made at any velocity up to and including .6 c. No vessel may exceed .6 c in hyper (.8 in normal-space) because radiation and particle shields cannot protect them or their passengers at higher velocities.

Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.

Also Hyper translation seems to imply it's actually safer to be underway when cracking a hyper wall.

munroburton wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:I believe kzt used "alpha side" to mean waiting in hyperspace in the lowest alpha band, near the hyper limit.

You're correct that LACs can easily fly out past the hyper limit -- in n-space. But that doesn't help them find someone waiting in hyper.


IIRC kzt has long been a proponent of waiting in hyper to bounce out outbound freighters. (I say outbound, because inbound freighters are going to be dropping very quickly though the alpha bands into n-space -- and chasing them down their exposes your raiders to system defense MDM pods; and avoiding those was the whole reason you were camping out in hyper)
I suspect if it was that easy that everybody would already be doing it; but he's certainly right that a LAC and pod SDF can't do anything about people who won't come into n-space.

I think a gutsy(or the first one to do it...) SLN raider CO might risk dropping into n-space in pursuit of a freighter, if all they want to do is kill said freighter. It wouldn't take more than a single broadside or chase launch to swat the poor merchie, then pop back into hyper. They might even simply cut their missiles loose and jump out as soon as their generators cycle.

It happened before the first Havenite war, with Peep raiders chasing the last ship from a convoy into Yeltsin's Star and destroying it before popping back into hyper..

that worked then, against the short ranged system missiles of that era.

But now, with Manticore going to outer MDM missile pods scattered out near the hyperlimit (like the ones that were unnecessarily used for the raid against Zanzibar) a raider doesn't have time to let their generator cycle. That might take 10-20 minutes while the retaliatory missiles will be there in 7-9 minutes.
They could chase a merchant into n-space. And even take it out, but they're unlikely to escape alive.
Ouch.

SWM wrote:

Kytheros wrote:Also, as quoted above, sure, somebody lurking in hyper is going to be well inside the 'rough detection bubble' of 20 hyperspace light minutes, but the quoted range on good detection is a mere 20 hyperspace light seconds - so to have good detection on the entire hyper limit, you'd have to be sitting effectively at rest in the middle of the zone while in hyper.
That means you're at the extreme range on good detection, and the target has a hefty base velocity advantage heading away from you. To engage this hypothetical target, you either have to launch missiles at extreme ranges, or slam the throttle, and launch missiles once you've cut down the velocity advantage some. Oh, and you have to be sitting with your wedge up, not just hot nodes. Either way you go, the target will see you coming ... and will likely have time for its hyper generators to cycle, unless you launch missiles right away ... except even if you launch missiles right away, you're probably not going to have much, if any accuracy.

So ... sure, you can loiter and watch a system from hyper ... but you can only effectively tag inbounds ... who can just crash translate downwards, or back upwards, when/if they see you coming.

No, the quoted range of hyperspace sensors is 20 light-minutes, not 20 light-seconds. 40 light-seconds is within easy detection range. You are off by a factor of 60.

20 light minutes is the 'rough detection' range, as in, you can tell, roughly, that there's something over thataways, and the approximate distance, but you don't get any accurate detail.
If you want accurate readings, the 'good detection' range is roughly 20 light seconds. And you want accurate readings.

SWM wrote:

Kytheros wrote:Also, IIRC, only translating downwards bleeds away your velocity, not translating upwards. Unless I'm wrong about that, the freighter's got an even bigger starting velocity advantage.

No, you bleed velocity going upwards and downwards.

D'you have a quote for that? All I remember is that downwards translation is specifically called out as bleeding away velocity, but nothing about upwards translations, at least from the books, upwards translations might get specified in one of Weber's infodumps.

SWM wrote:

Kytheros wrote:There's a difference between simply being "detectable" and being a massive flare. My impression is that an upward translation is usually a lot 'quieter' than a downwards translation. Could be completely wrong, though.

The assumption most of us have made, based on David's infodump, is that a transit will flare in the band a ship transits into, just like a transit flares when entering normal space.

As I said, my impression has been that an upward translation produces a smaller flare than a downwards flare would under otherwise equal conditions. Plus the 'messiness' of hyperspace drastically reducing the efficacy of sensors, which isn't an issue in normal space.

SWM wrote:Vince,

Your numbers look good. But what happens if the pursuing ship transits to the Beta band when it sees the freighter transit out of the Alpha? Suddenly, instead of 22.5 light-seconds apart, they are now 1.8 light-seconds apart.

That of course depends on the pursuing ship having its hyper generator ready to transit, which poses some additional complications to the scenario. But if the pursuing ship did get its generator ready, it would be very close to the freighter.

The pursuing raider cannot translate immediately upon the freighter translating, because you can't translate instantly, and the pursuer doesn't know when the freighter is going to transit. There's a little bit of lag time the freighter can take advantage of to evade and/or hide. Or, y'know, the freighter could just drop back down to normal space and hide for a while, turning the range into light minutes, and depending on the state of the system's sensor net and defense forces, possibly drawing a response force out, especially with a mayday transmission before the pursuer can crash translate in pursuit.
Most cargos are nonperishables, or are of limited perishability. Worst case, freighters add a few days of realspace travel when leaving systems that are known to have raiders but haven't gotten cleaned up yet.

Vince wrote:

SWM wrote:Oh, one other comment, Vince. Freighters generally drop to near zero velocity before transiting upward or downward, to save wear and tear on the nodes. So normally a freighter would not carry velocity when they jump into hyperspace. But if the freighter is deliberately using this round-about route to avoid a suspected ambush, it is reasonable to suppose that they would transit at speed. So this is plausible.

I don't remember reading any examples of this, except in In Enemy Hands, where the rest of the convoy stopped in the alpha band, awaiting the report of the single warship that went in directly to check out the system. Do you have any examples?

This quote seems to imply that merchant ships, as well as warships do make translation while underway:

More Than Honor, The Universe of Honor Harrington, (1) Background (General) wrote:Since .3 c (approx. 89,907.6 km./sec.) was the maximum velocity at which an "upward" translation into hyper-space could be made, the maximum initial velocity in hyper-space was .024 c (or 7,192.6 km./sec.). Making translation at speeds as high as .3 c was a rough experience and not particularly safe. The loss rate at .3 c was over 10%; dropping translation velocity to .23 c virtually eliminated ship losses in initial translation, and, since the difference in initial hyper velocity was less than 1,700 KPS, most captains routinely made translation at the lower speed. Even today, only military commanders in emergency conditions will make upward translation at .3 c. There is no safe upper speed on "downward" translations. That is, a ship may translate from hyper-space to normal-space at any hyper-space velocity without risking destruction. (Which is not to say that the crews enjoy the experience or that it does not impose enormous wear and tear on hyper generators.) Further, translation from one hyper band to a higher band (see below) may be made at any velocity up to and including .6 c. No vessel may exceed .6 c in hyper (.8 in normal-space) because radiation and particle shields cannot protect them or their passengers at higher velocities.

Italics are the author's, boldface and underlined text is my emphasis.

Also Hyper translation seems to imply it's actually safer to be underway when cracking a hyper wall.

You're right--I misremembered. I did remember that they don't go at full speed. I was thinking that they drop to zero, but they don't. They just drop to 0.23 c if they have to drop at all, which is unlikely. Looks like you've got all the right parameters. Nice analysis.

If you are being chased by a warship you don't "try to hide". You have the horrifically hot reactor and the huge gravity signature of the wedge, you can choose to hide at most one. Even a crappy warship has sensors much better than the typical freighter.

What you do instead is translate to real space and immediately abandon ship.

Kytheros wrote:

SWM wrote:No, you bleed velocity going upwards and downwards.

D'you have a quote for that? All I remember is that downwards translation is specifically called out as bleeding away velocity, but nothing about upwards translations, at least from the books, upwards translations might get specified in one of Weber's infodumps.

From The Universe of Honor Harrington, published in More Than Honor (emphasis added):

The major problem limiting hyper speeds was that simply getting into hyper did not create a propulsive effect. Indeed, the initial translation into hyper was a complex energy transfer which reduced a starship's velocity by "bleeding off" momentum. In effect, a translating hypership lost approximately 92% of its normal-space velocity when entering hyper. This had unfortunate consequences in terms of reaction mass requirements, particularly since the fact that hydrogen catcher fields were inoperable in hyper meant one could not replenish one's reaction mass underway. On the other hand, the velocity bleed effect applied equally regardless of the direction of the translation (that is, one lost 92% of one's velocity whether one was entering hyper-space from normal-space or normal-space from hyper-space), which meant that leaving hyper automatically decelerated one's vessel to a normal-space velocity only 08% of whatever its velocity had been in hyper-space. This tremendously reduced the amount of deceleration required at the far end of a hyper voyage and so made reaction drives at least workable.

Kytheros wrote:Also, IIRC, only translating downwards bleeds away your velocity, not translating upwards. Unless I'm wrong about that, the freighter's got an even bigger starting velocity advantage.

SWM wrote:No, you bleed velocity going upwards and downwards.

Kytheros wrote:D'you have a quote for that? All I remember is that downwards translation is specifically called out as bleeding away velocity, but nothing about upwards translations, at least from the books, upwards translations might get specified in one of Weber's infodumps.

Here's the quote:

More Than Honor, The Universe of Honor Harrington, (1) Background (General) wrote:The major problem limiting hyper speeds was that simply getting into hyper did not create a propulsive effect. Indeed, the initial translation into hyper was a complex energy transfer which reduced a starship's velocity by "bleeding off" momentum. In effect, a translating hypership lost approximately 92% of its normal-space velocity when entering hyper. This had unfortunate consequences in terms of reaction mass requirements, particularly since the fact that hydrogen catcher fields were inoperable in hyper meant one could not replenish one's reaction mass underway. On the other hand, the velocity bleed effect applied equally regardless of the direction of the translation (that is, one lost 92% of one's velocity whether one was entering hyper-space from normal-space or normal-space from hyper-space), which meant that leaving hyper automatically decelerated one's vessel to a normal-space velocity only 08% of whatever its velocity had been in hyper-space. This tremendously reduced the amount of deceleration required at the far end of a hyper voyage and so made reaction drives at least workable.
Since .3 c (approx. 89,907.6 km./sec.) was the maximum velocity at which an "upward" translation into hyper-space could be made, the maximum initial velocity in hyper-space was .024 c (or 7,192.6 km./sec.). Making translation at speeds as high as .3 c was a rough experience and not particularly safe. The loss rate at .3 c was over 10%; dropping translation velocity to .23 c virtually eliminated ship losses in initial translation, and, since the difference in initial hyper velocity was less than 1,700 KPS, most captains routinely made translation at the lower speed. Even today, only military commanders in emergency conditions will make upward translation at .3 c. There is no safe upper speed on "downward" translations. That is, a ship may translate from hyper-space to normal-space at any hyper-space velocity without risking destruction. (Which is not to say that the crews enjoy the experience or that it does not impose enormous wear and tear on hyper generators.) Further, translation from one hyper band to a higher band (see below) may be made at any velocity up to and including .6 c. No vessel may exceed .6 c in hyper (.8 in normal-space) because radiation and particle shields cannot protect them or their passengers at higher velocities.

***Snip***

From the beginning of hyper travel, it was known that there were multiple hyper bands and that the "higher" the band, the closer the congruity between points in normal-space and thus the higher the apparent FTL speed, but their use was impractical for two major reasons. First, translation from band to band bleeds off velocity much as the initial translation. The bleed-off for each higher band is approximately 92% of the bleed-off for the next lowest one (that is, the alpha band translation reduces velocity by 92%; the beta band bleed-off is 84.64%; the velocity loss for the gamma band is 77.87%, etc.), but it still had to be made up again after each translation, and this posed an insurmountable mass requirement for any reaction drive.

Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

See Effective speed by hyper band for the full table of translation bleed off.