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Control Missile for shipboard launched missiles

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Re: Control Missile for shipboard launched missiles
Post by Vince   » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:44 am

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SWM wrote:Vince, you neglect the point that 20 light-minutes in normal space equates to about 20 light-seconds in the alpha band of hyperspace. So, if an enemy ship is sitting in the alpha band at the hyper-limit, and a freighter enters hyper at the hyper-limit on the opposite side of the star, the freighter will pop up a mere 40 light-seconds away from the enemy ship. Easily inside detection range and missile range. A ship in the alpha band can cover the entire hyper-limit of the star.

You need to reread the quote:
More Than Honor, The Universe of Honor Harrington, (1) Background (General) wrote:Navigation, communication, and observation all are rendered difficult by the nature of hyper-space. Formed by gravitational distortion, hyper-space itself acts as a focusing glass, producing a cascade effect of ever more tightly warped space. The laws of relativistic physics apply at any given point in that space, but as a hypothetical observer looks "outward" in hyper-space, his instruments show a rapidly increasing distortion. At ranges above about 20 LM (359,751,000 km.) that distortion becomes so pronounced that accurate observations are impossible. One says "about 20 LM" because, depending on local conditions, that range may vary up or down by as much as 12%—that is, from 17.6 LM (316,580,880 km.) to 22.4 LM (or 402,921,120 km.). A hypership thus travels at the center of a bubble of observation from 633,161,760 to 805,842,240 km. in diameter. Even within that sphere, observations and measurements can be highly suspect; in effect, the "bubble" may be thought of as the region in which an observer can tell something is out there and very roughly where. Exact, precise observations and measurements are all but impossible above ranges of 5,000,000 to 6,000,000 km., which would make navigational fixes impossible even if there were anything to take fixes on.
Boldface, italics and underlined text is my emphasis.

The maximum physical range of a single drive missile, accelerating at 42,500 gravities for 180 seconds, is only 6,750,00 km (per The Short Victorious War, Honor Harrington's Navy, Naval Weaponry). 6,750,000 km is ~ 22.5 light seconds. So a merchantman that translated into hyper and is 40 light seconds away in hyper from a raider lying doggo in the alpha band is completely out of the maximum physical weapons range (both energy and single drive missile range) of the raider.

"Exact, precise observations and measurements are all but impossible above ranges of 5,000,000 to 6,000,000 km" in hyperspace (per More Than Honor, The Universe of Honor Harrington, (1) Background (General)). "Exact, precise observations and measurements" are exactly what is needed to direct weaponry (either energy weapons or impeller drive missiles) at a target, if you expect to hit it. 5,000,000 to 6,000,000 km is ~ 16.7 to ~ 20 light seconds. So a merchantman that translated into hyper and is 40 light seconds away in hyper from a raider lying doggo in the alpha band is completely out of the maximum effective targeting weapons range (both energy and single drive missile range) of the raider.

Using a K9 star (dimmest star that could have a habitable planet?) for the smallest hyper limit of 13.64 light minutes or 818.4 light seconds in normal space. Assume the starting point for the merchantman is 5 light minutes in normal space from the star (assumption: a planet at this distance from a K9 star would be in the Goldilocks zone). Assume that the merchantman (the size of an SD) accelerates at a constant effective 124 gravities (with an effective 35% inertial compensator safety margin on a civilian inertial compensator, maximum acceleration 190 gravities) directly towards a point on the hyper limit directly opposite a least-time course, dodging the star enroute.

(For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to assume that merchantman can and will accelerate faster to stay a safe distance from the star and then correct course, but the effective constant acceleration will be as if the ship accelerated at a constant 124 gravities on a line extending from a planet 5 light minutes from the star, through the star, and terminating at the hyper limit on the far side of the star from the planet. I'm also assuming that the ship will correct for the velocity of planet's orbit around the star.)

Additional assumption: An SD sized merchantman's civilian grade hyper generator takes 30 minutes (my SWAG) to fully power up to translate to the next higher band, after initially expending power in translating into the alpha band from normal space. See References and data sources at the end of this post.

The merchantman effectively travels 18.64 light minutes (normal space) from the planet, effectively accelerating at 124 gravities. It arrives at the hyper limit with a normal space velocity of ~ 28,546 kps ( ~ 9.5% of lightspeed, well below the .3 c limit), having effectively accelerated for ~ 23,491 seconds or ~ 6.5 hours. The merchantman immediately translates into hyper and immediately decelerates as a result, bleeding off 92% of its velocity in translation, and carrying ~ 2,284 kps of velocity across the hyper wall into the alpha band.

An SLN raider (Rampart-class DD, maximum acceleration ~ 519 gravities, 80% acceleration ~ 415 gravities, with figures computed from Shadow of Freedom, where Vice Admiral Oxana Dubroskaya told Governer Dueñas at Saltash: “Sir, our Rampart-class destroyers are only half that big, and their maximum acceleration rate, with zero safety margin on the compensator, is only five-point-zero-nine KPS squared.” Italics are the author's.) lying doggo in the alpha band band of hyperspace, at rest (zero velocity) relative to the hyper limit, detects the merchantman translation at 25.6 light seconds, too distant to target to immediately target (both physically out of SDM range and out of effective target range) and instantly accelerates in the alpha band of hyper space directly towards the merchantman at a constant 415 gravities for 30 minutes. The raider will achieve a velocity of 7,321 kps and will have traveled a distance in hyper of 6,588,540 km or ~ 22 light seconds.

The merchantman continues accelerating at 124 gravities in hyper space (assuming no gravity wave nearby) for a further 30 minutes while it recharges its hyper generator before translating into the next higher hyper band. The merchantman achieves a velocity of ~ 4,471 kps, and travels a further 6,079,500 km or ~ 20.3 light seconds in hyper.

After the 30 minute stern chase, the SLN Rampart-class DD raider is now 23.9 light seconds distant from the merchantman. The merchantman is physically out of SDM range ( ~ 22.5 light seconds), as well as the maximum effective targeting range in hyper ( ~ 20 light seconds maximum) from the raider. The merchantman immediately translates into the beta band and escapes from the pursuing raider.

Repeating the above scenario with no safety margin on either the raider (519 gravities acceleration) or the merchantman (190 gravities acceleration) but all other factors kept the same:

The merchantman effectively travels 18.64 light minutes (normal space) from the planet, effectively accelerating at 190 gravities. It arrives at the hyper limit with a normal space velocity of ~ 35,335 kps ( ~ 11.8% of light-speed, well below the .3 c limit), having effectively accelerated for ~ 18,977 seconds or ~ 5.3 hours. The merchantman immediately translates into hyper and immediately decelerates as a result, bleeding off 92% of its velocity in translation, and carrying ~ 2,827 kps of velocity across the hyper wall into the alpha band.

An SLN raider at rest (zero velocity) relative to the hyper limit, lying doggo in the alpha band of hyperspace, detects the merchantman translation at 25.6 light seconds, too distant to target to immediately target (both physically out of SDM range and out of effective target range) and instantly accelerates in the alpha band of hyper space directly towards the merchantman at a constant 519 gravities for 30 minutes. The raider will achieve a velocity of 9,155 kps and will have traveled a distance in hyper of 8,239,500 km or ~ 27.5 light seconds.

The merchantman continues accelerating at 190 gravities in hyper space (assuming no gravity wave nearby) for a further 30 minutes while it recharges its hyper generator before translating into the next higher hyper band. The merchantman achieves a velocity of ~ 6,179 kps, and travels a further 8,105,400 km or ~ 27 light seconds in hyper.

After the 30 minute stern chase, the SLN Rampart-class DD raider is now 25.1 light seconds distant from the merchantman. The merchantman is physically out of SDM range ( ~ 22.5 light seconds), as well as the maximum effective targeting range in hyper ( ~ 20 light seconds maximum) from the raider. The merchantman immediately translates into the beta band and escapes from the pursuing raider.

Note that all of the above assumes the merchantman translates out at a point directly opposite the least-time course translation point. It doesn't have to translate out directly on the point, it can translate out anywhere the open end of a narrow cone intersects the hyper limit (with the cone's point the planet the merchantman starts from, and the center-line of the cone passing through the cone's point, the star, and the star's hyper limit), with the maximum width of the cone determined by how close the merchantman is willing to come into missile range of the raider.

It only gets worse for the raider as the star's spectral class goes up towards F0 (hottest star class that could have a habitable planet?). The distance to the hyper limit from the star increases, the distance a habitable planet would be from the star increases. Both of which increase the merchantman's head start. And widens out the angle of the cone. The same applies if the cycle time of a civilian hyper generator for an SD size merchantman is less than my guess of 30 minutes.

Calculation of initial distance in hyper of merchantman by raider:

Distance in normal space = 2 * hyper limit = 27.28 LM = 1,636.8 LS
Distance in alpha band of hyperspace = 1,636.8 LS / 64 = 25.6 LS (rounded to one decimal place)

References and data sources:

One light second in the alpha band = 64 light seconds in normal space:
At All Costs, Chapter 57 (computed from Apollo's transmission speed along the alpha wall with ships and ACM in normal space)

General information on hyperspace, military and civilian compensator safety margins:
More Than Honor, The Universe of Honor Harrington, (1) Background (General)

Maximum range of a single drive missile (SDM):
The Short Victorious War, Honor Harrington's Navy, Naval Weaponry

Infodumps:
Acceleration by ship mass
Hyper Limits by stellar spectral class
Hyper generator modes of operation

Uniform acceleration formulas from Wikipedia:
Acceleration

Other information from Wikipedia
Speed of light (in meters per second)
Gravity of Earth (rounded to one decimal place)

My scientific wild ass guess (SWAG) of 30 minutes for an SD size merchantman civilian hyper generator to cycle up to translation to the beta band from the alpha band, after undergoing initial translation from normal space to the alpha band--based on the above Pearl and how long it would take for a Scientist's military grade hyper generator to cycle to translate from normal space to the alpha band, after translating from the alpha band to normal space (16 minutes--12 minutes to standby readiness and 4 more minutes to cycle up to an actual translation:
A Rising Thunder, Chapter 20

Calculations were rounded off to two decimal places (light minutes), one decimal place (one Earth gravity of acceleration--mps, light seconds, hours) or no decimal places (gravities--acceleration, light seconds, km, kps).
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Re: Control Missile for shipboard launched missiles
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Sat Apr 11, 2015 8:09 am

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Following the topic drift.

The whole detecting in hyper thing is a very fuzzy thing to me.

It only takes a merchant 4 minutes to cross the entire gamma set of sub bands on a standard translation profile from Delta to normal space in HotQ.

Is it possible you track one sub band from another? How many sub bands are there in each?

During the limited time it is the same sub band you have to see it initiate the hyper drive from the "rest" state to chase them. Or so I thought. Which if a merchant is reversing that normal space to the delta band is ~12 minutes.

Though for each upward translation you do get closer.

But how do you know which band they are following? The the predicted destination is different that other ship may stop at the Beta band to take advantage of a more economical use of grav waves. As was shown in Hexapuma's navigation to Spindle.

Do you set at initiation of the transition profile which band you stop at?

That is just the start of the questions in my mind.

Enjoy the weekend,
T2M
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Re: Control Missile for shipboard launched missiles
Post by MaxxQ   » Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:40 am

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wastedfly wrote:MK-16 including Mod-G has 6 laser rods lighter than capital grade PRHN/RMN laser rods, but better than SLN capital grade laser rods.

MK23 and presumably PEEP equivalent have 10 laser rods.


Minor correction: The Mk-16 (any mod) carries six of the exact same laserheads as the Mk-23, which, as you noted correctly, carries ten.

It's the Mk-13 that carries lighter laserheads.
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Re: Control Missile for shipboard launched missiles
Post by Guardiandashi   » Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:51 am

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thinkstoomuch wrote:Following the topic drift.

The whole detecting in hyper thing is a very fuzzy thing to me.

It only takes a merchant 4 minutes to cross the entire gamma set of sub bands on a standard translation profile from Delta to normal space in HotQ.

Is it possible you track one sub band from another? How many sub bands are there in each?

During the limited time it is the same sub band you have to see it initiate the hyper drive from the "rest" state to chase them. Or so I thought. Which if a merchant is reversing that normal space to the delta band is ~12 minutes.

Though for each upward translation you do get closer.

But how do you know which band they are following? The the predicted destination is different that other ship may stop at the Beta band to take advantage of a more economical use of grav waves. As was shown in Hexapuma's navigation to Spindle.

Do you set at initiation of the transition profile which band you stop at?

That is just the start of the questions in my mind.

Enjoy the weekend,
T2M

its been a while since I read it, but I am under the impression there are ~10 sub bands in each "hyper band"
so if I am correct it would be: alpha 1-10, beta 1-10, gamma 1-10 etc.

and translating from sublight to alpha 1 has a huge (relatively speaking) signature, translating from alpha 1-2, 2-3, etc. has a much lower energy cost, and signature, going from alpha 10- beta 1 is again pretty significant and has a pretty high bleed off, but I seem to remember its not as significant, and the "threshold" isn't as bad (or as velocity critical)
http://honorverse.wikia.com/wiki/Hyperspace

down translation drop your speed by ~80% per that article,
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Re: Control Missile for shipboard launched missiles
Post by kzt   » Sat Apr 11, 2015 2:36 pm

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Vince wrote:
After the 30 minute stern chase, the SLN Rampart-class DD raider is now 23.9 light seconds distant from the merchantman. The merchantman is physically out of SDM range ( ~ 22.5 light seconds), as well as the maximum effective targeting range in hyper ( ~ 20 light seconds maximum) from the raider. The merchantman immediately translates into the beta band and escapes from the pursuing raider.

not quite

A) in order for this to be stern chase the DD has to be inside the hyper limit, which would be silly.

B) the DD immediately translates to beta, is now inside SDM range and fires.
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Re: Control Missile for shipboard launched missiles
Post by Kytheros   » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:20 pm

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kzt wrote:
Vince wrote:
After the 30 minute stern chase, the SLN Rampart-class DD raider is now 23.9 light seconds distant from the merchantman. The merchantman is physically out of SDM range ( ~ 22.5 light seconds), as well as the maximum effective targeting range in hyper ( ~ 20 light seconds maximum) from the raider. The merchantman immediately translates into the beta band and escapes from the pursuing raider.

not quite

A) in order for this to be stern chase the DD has to be inside the hyper limit, which would be silly.

B) the DD immediately translates to beta, is now inside SDM range and fires.

If you're lying doggo and want to see anybody approaching or leaving, you either sit on the least time course, except it's wartime, people are going to mix things up and enter/leave somewhere else, so you sit in the approximate middle, so you've got the minimum distance to go no matter where they translate. Except a 20 light minute hyper limit - puts you at the edges of the ~20 light second good detection range. If you're on the least time course, and the merchant makes their course halfway between least time and max time, you're looking at ~28 light seconds, still well outside engagement or even good detection range.
You're in the approximate middle of the zone, because you're operating on your own. If you've got a partner, you can split up to sit on the least time and the reciprocal heading, but then you can't support one another and are well outside the range of reliable communication, and if somebody goes out halfway in between the two of you, you both have to go after it, because otherwise they might get away. You basically need a squadron if you want to sit on a system and catch most inbound/outbound transits from out in front of them.


B) Freighter jumps to the Beta band, and has at least a minute or so to alter course and drop its wedge and hide before the destroyer can translate up after it. The freighter will have time for its generator to cycle again before the destroyer can find it, and will be able to translate up undetected, loosing the destroyer for good.


Also, IIRC, only translating downwards bleeds away your velocity, not translating upwards. Unless I'm wrong about that, the freighter's got an even bigger starting velocity advantage.
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Re: Control Missile for shipboard launched missiles
Post by SWM   » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:32 pm

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Kytheros wrote:Also, as quoted above, sure, somebody lurking in hyper is going to be well inside the 'rough detection bubble' of 20 hyperspace light minutes, but the quoted range on good detection is a mere 20 hyperspace light seconds - so to have good detection on the entire hyper limit, you'd have to be sitting effectively at rest in the middle of the zone while in hyper.
That means you're at the extreme range on good detection, and the target has a hefty base velocity advantage heading away from you. To engage this hypothetical target, you either have to launch missiles at extreme ranges, or slam the throttle, and launch missiles once you've cut down the velocity advantage some. Oh, and you have to be sitting with your wedge up, not just hot nodes. Either way you go, the target will see you coming ... and will likely have time for its hyper generators to cycle, unless you launch missiles right away ... except even if you launch missiles right away, you're probably not going to have much, if any accuracy.

So ... sure, you can loiter and watch a system from hyper ... but you can only effectively tag inbounds ... who can just crash translate downwards, or back upwards, when/if they see you coming.

No, the quoted range of hyperspace sensors is 20 light-minutes, not 20 light-seconds. 40 light-seconds is within easy detection range. You are off by a factor of 60.
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Re: Control Missile for shipboard launched missiles
Post by SWM   » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:34 pm

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Kytheros wrote:Also, IIRC, only translating downwards bleeds away your velocity, not translating upwards. Unless I'm wrong about that, the freighter's got an even bigger starting velocity advantage.

No, you bleed velocity going upwards and downwards.
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Re: Control Missile for shipboard launched missiles
Post by SWM   » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:41 pm

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Kytheros wrote:
kzt wrote:that cause hyper footprints, not upward.

Nope, David said that you see the footprint on the side that the ship appears when asked about the disappearance of the ghosts.

Let me see if I can find that...

Wow, that was harder than I thought

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/si ... gton/265/1

There's a difference between simply being "detectable" and being a massive flare. My impression is that an upward translation is usually a lot 'quieter' than a downwards translation. Could be completely wrong, though.[/quote]
The assumption most of us have made, based on David's infodump, is that a transit will flare in the band a ship transits into, just like a transit flares when entering normal space.
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Re: Control Missile for shipboard launched missiles
Post by crewdude48   » Sat Apr 11, 2015 6:57 pm

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SWM wrote:The assumption most of us have made, based on David's infodump, is that a transit will flare in the band a ship transits into, just like a transit flares when entering normal space.


I have always kind of assumed that the flare would be bigger going down than coming up. Yes, it would still be there, but not as readily detectable.

We know that the size of a normal space flare is affected by the speed you were going before the translation and the speed you are coming "down" the dimensional gradient.

I suspect that the flare is basically the energy you are losing by doing the translation, both dimensional and kinetic, being converted into gravitic energy.

Going up, you are still losing kinetic energy, but you are gaining "dimensional energy," if I can call it that. therefore there is less energy to bleed off, resulting is a smaller flair.
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