(SPOILERS) The reasons for the Archangel's return

Keith_w wrote:

SWM wrote:The reason I said that the Honorverse example does not apply to Safehold is because the Federation does not have impeller wedges to accelerate projectiles at nearly 100,000 gees.

How do you know that this example doesn't apply? We know that they have some form of propulsion system that supports at least 400Gs, although we don't know how it works. If you don't need to compensate for the humans aboard, there may be no upper limit to the speed it may achieve.

As I have said before, there is too much unknown about the TF Technology to say they can or can't do something

I was saying it doesn't apply because it is a different universe. Just because the Honorverse does it does not mean that Safehold does it. Honorverse KEWs with impellers cannot be used as evidence that Safehold launches KEWs with 100,000 gee accelerations. I am not saying that Safehold definitely doesn't have KEWs with high accelerations. I am saying that what the Honorverse has does not tell us what Safehold has. It doesn't apply.

Just a comment here, Keith. David has imagined several universes among which are Honorverse, Safehold, Starfire, Duhak, Empire of Man, some of which he shares with other authors. But as I understand it, although there are similarities, each of those universes has its own "Bible" or separate set of rules. The point is that even given the similarities, you can't make the assumption that the rules in one universe can be imported over into another even though the same author has created both.

I can understand the temptation to do so, by the way.

Don

n7axw wrote:Just a comment here, Keith. David has imagined several universes among which are Honorverse, Safehold, Starfire, Duhak, Empire of Man, some of which he shares with other authors. But as I understand it, although there are similarities, each of those universes has its own "Bible" or separate set of rules. The point is that even given the similarities, you can't make the assumption that the rules in one universe can be imported over into another even though the same author has created both.

I can understand the temptation to do so, by the way.

Don

I was not aware that what applies in one universe does not apply in another until you explained it to me, having never met a single science fiction author with multiple universes before so I was kinda expecting an ageless vampire to show up, defeat the CoGA and then the Ghaba.

Now would you also kindly explain to me why what occurred to military planners in the honorverse, as well as those in the real world, that is, kinetic energy weapons are much more energetic when they have additional boost applied might not have occurred to military planners in the Safeholdian universe?
See Compact Kinetic Energy Missile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Kinetic_Energy_Missile

Keith_w wrote:

n7axw wrote:Just a comment here, Keith. David has imagined several universes among which are Honorverse, Safehold, Starfire, Duhak, Empire of Man, some of which he shares with other authors. But as I understand it, although there are similarities, each of those universes has its own "Bible" or separate set of rules. The point is that even given the similarities, you can't make the assumption that the rules in one universe can be imported over into another even though the same author has created both.

I can understand the temptation to do so, by the way.

Don

I was not aware that what applies in one universe does not apply in another until you explained it to me, having never met a single science fiction author with multiple universes before so I was kinda expecting an ageless vampire to show up, defeat the CoGA and then the Ghaba.

Now would you also kindly explain to me why what occurred to military planners in the honorverse, as well as those in the real world, that is, kinetic energy weapons are much more energetic when they have additional boost applied might not have occurred to military planners in the Safeholdian universe?
See Compact Kinetic Energy Missile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Kinetic_Energy_Missile

That is a question you'll have to ask RFC. There are other things that crop up from time to time. For example warp points in the Starfire universe are not the same as wormholes in the Honorverse, for example. That one tripped me up! David is pretty good at giving us universes that can be imagined from within our own framework. But there comes that border beyond which suspension of disbelief is required, a point when what we are hearing is the author's fantasy, handwavium, so to speak. I suspect that the differences are in large measure determined by how he wants to tell each story, and maybe to entertain himself with something other than the same old thing.

At any rate, crowding too hard for consistency between the universes or our own timeline is probably unwise. I try to find the internal consistency within each universe and usually succeed at that.

As for your question, one possible answer was that since he has no intention for the Gbaba (or anyone else) to come and make an unfriendly call on Safehold, there was no need to point the OBS any direction other than down. Also, specificly how the thing was constructed--guidance systems, thrusters, etc.-- are not really needed details for the story he wants to tell. So he doesn't come to grips with it.

That's just my conjecture, however. As for the real answer, as I noted above, you'll have to ask RFC. In the meantime enjoy the story and speculate to your hearts content.

Don

Keith_w wrote:I was not aware that what applies in one universe does not apply in another until you explained it to me, having never met a single science fiction author with multiple universes before so I was kinda expecting an ageless vampire to show up, defeat the CoGA and then the Ghaba.

Now would you also kindly explain to me why what occurred to military planners in the honorverse, as well as those in the real world, that is, kinetic energy weapons are much more energetic when they have additional boost applied might not have occurred to military planners in the Safeholdian universe?
See Compact Kinetic Energy Missile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Kinetic_Energy_Missile

SPOILERS... I hope!

I've noticed that there are clear differences in propulsion between the Honorverse and Safehold, but I've never thought there was a great difference between the KEWs used in each.

The KEWs used in "Cauldron of Ghosts" seem quite similar to those used by the OBS system, if on a smaller scale. I always thought the OBS fired projectiles more or less straight downward at the planet's surface below it. I never considered it to be like Mike from Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress," which was a computer that helped the rebels launch rocks at Earth using a magnetic rail system. Those rocks in metal containers got their impact energy from their initial launch speed, aided by the Earth's gravity well.

The KEWs in both the Honorverse and on Safehold are actively fired at the surface from a much closer orbit, not dropped. The damage at Armageddon Reef is simply too great to be accounted for by a rock kicked into a degrading orbit and accelerated merely by gravity. Langhorne was intensely paranoid and might have worried that the techies had installed an anti-bombardment system, so the speed of the OBS' warheads would be crucial if they had. He would have elected to build an OBS that fired KEWs, not one that dropped them. That would also make the OBS more accurate, because each KEW would spend less time penetrating the atmosphere.

It's also notable that the OBS can vary the amount of damage it does, presumably by altering the amount of mass fired at the planet, or by altering the speed of the KEW, just like the KEWs used in the Honorverse. The destruction of the Abbey of Saint Kohdy was far too surgical to have been done by one of the "warheads" of the size and speed that were used to destroy the Alexandria enclave at Armageddon Reef, which left craters miles wide across the surface and obliterated an area nearly the size of the Duchy of Silkiah. If the warhead used on the Abbey had been as powerful as the ones used on Alexandria, there would be a sizable crater in the Temple Lands, and the Church would have had to admit that the Rakurai had destroyed the abbey rather than conveniently omitting that fact from its official records.

I'm not saying that the OBS system uses impellers on whatever type of KEW that it fires, but the evidence that its KEWs hit with much more momentum than mere gravity could impart is overwhelming. Why else would Merlin be nervous about flying the skimmer at high speeds? No rock that was merely "dropped" from the OBS would ever hit the skimmer flying at Mach 4, but a KEW fired at a sufficient velocity might.

McGuiness wrote:..snip..
I'm not saying that the OBS system uses impellers on whatever type of KEW that it fires, but the evidence that its KEWs hit with much more momentum than mere gravity could impart is overwhelming. Why else would Merlin be nervous about flying the skimmer at high speeds? No rock that was merely "dropped" from the OBS would ever hit the skimmer flying at Mach 4, but a KEW fired at a sufficient velocity might.

I think he was more afraid of being detected rather than being hit by a rock, but having a rock drop in the vincinity at a couple of km/s has a tendency to screw up most flying contraptions regardless.

And being detected may trigger the OBS to go into active detection mode instead of passive or it may also wake up whatever is under the Temple.

Of course, the responses that would be triggered by having a skimmer being detected is mostly speculation which we have covered before.

McGuiness wrote:

Keith_w wrote:I was not aware that what applies in one universe does not apply in another until you explained it to me, having never met a single science fiction author with multiple universes before so I was kinda expecting an ageless vampire to show up, defeat the CoGA and then the Ghaba.

Now would you also kindly explain to me why what occurred to military planners in the honorverse, as well as those in the real world, that is, kinetic energy weapons are much more energetic when they have additional boost applied might not have occurred to military planners in the Safeholdian universe?
See Compact Kinetic Energy Missile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Kinetic_Energy_Missile

SPOILERS... I hope!

I've noticed that there are clear differences in propulsion between the Honorverse and Safehold, but I've never thought there was a great difference between the KEWs used in each.

The KEWs used in "Cauldron of Ghosts" seem quite similar to those used by the OBS system, if on a smaller scale. I always thought the OBS fired projectiles more or less straight downward at the planet's surface below it. I never considered it to be like Mike from Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress," which was a computer that helped the rebels launch rocks at Earth using a magnetic rail system. Those rocks in metal containers got their impact energy from their initial launch speed, aided by the Earth's gravity well.

The KEWs in both the Honorverse and on Safehold are actively fired at the surface from a much closer orbit, not dropped. The damage at Armageddon Reef is simply too great to be accounted for by a rock kicked into a degrading orbit and accelerated merely by gravity. Langhorne was intensely paranoid and might have worried that the techies had installed an anti-bombardment system, so the speed of the OBS' warheads would be crucial if they had. He would have elected to build an OBS that fired KEWs, not one that dropped them. That would also make the OBS more accurate, because each KEW would spend less time penetrating the atmosphere.

It's also notable that the OBS can vary the amount of damage it does, presumably by altering the amount of mass fired at the planet, or by altering the speed of the KEW, just like the KEWs used in the Honorverse. The destruction of the Abbey of Saint Kohdy was far too surgical to have been done by one of the "warheads" of the size and speed that were used to destroy the Alexandria enclave at Armageddon Reef, which left craters miles wide across the surface and obliterated an area nearly the size of the Duchy of Silkiah. If the warhead used on the Abbey had been as powerful as the ones used on Alexandria, there would be a sizable crater in the Temple Lands, and the Church would have had to admit that the Rakurai had destroyed the abbey rather than conveniently omitting that fact from its official records.

I'm not saying that the OBS system uses impellers on whatever type of KEW that it fires, but the evidence that its KEWs hit with much more momentum than mere gravity could impart is overwhelming. Why else would Merlin be nervous about flying the skimmer at high speeds? No rock that was merely "dropped" from the OBS would ever hit the skimmer flying at Mach 4, but a KEW fired at a sufficient velocity might.

I recall that Merlin observed that Alexandria was obliterated by several passes with multiple strikes. St. Khody's may have been but a mere one or two KEWs.

You mentioned something that has bothered me since we started this thread. St. Khody's was described as the "last" rakuri of the War against the Fallen (hereafter, WatF) yet there has been no mention of cratering across the planet, and I don't think sufficient time has passed (980 years, more or less) for craters to have filled in naturally, so there could not have been too much use of the OBS.

Keith_w wrote:

I recall that Merlin observed that Alexandria was obliterated by several passes with multiple strikes. St. Khody's may have been but a mere one or two KEWs.

You mentioned something that has bothered me since we started this thread. St. Khody's was described as the "last" rakuri of the War against the Fallen (hereafter, WatF) yet there has been no mention of cratering across the planet, and I don't think sufficient time has passed (980 years, more or less) for craters to have filled in naturally, so there could not have been too much use of the OBS.

That is interesting, isn't it? There is mention of the Angels preparing for a final assault against the Fallen in the Desolation Mountains. One would wonder why they wouldn't have used the rakurai for that to avoid casualties on their own side.

Of course, there are obviously a lot of details that haven't been filled in for us and probably never will.

Don

Joat42 wrote:

McGuiness wrote:..snip..
I'm not saying that the OBS system uses impellers on whatever type of KEW that it fires, but the evidence that its KEWs hit with much more momentum than mere gravity could impart is overwhelming. Why else would Merlin be nervous about flying the skimmer at high speeds? No rock that was merely "dropped" from the OBS would ever hit the skimmer flying at Mach 4, but a KEW fired at a sufficient velocity might.

I think he was more afraid of being detected rather than being hit by a rock, but having a rock drop in the vincinity at a couple of km/s has a tendency to screw up most flying contraptions regardless.

And being detected may trigger the OBS to go into active detection mode instead of passive or it may also wake up whatever is under the Temple.

Of course, the responses that would be triggered by having a skimmer being detected is mostly speculation which we have covered before.

A couple of km/s is a non-event unless you are directly under it - that is standard artillery velocities ( lethal radius a metre or so). (Having a bursting charge seriously boosts this).
Kinetic energy weapons deliver peak energy in the direction of travel, anything else is a reflection of this unlike an explosive (or even nuclear) charge which is omnidirectional (but shapeable to a modest degree by containment). Even a near miss at 10km/s will just leave your ears ringing but a hit will blow a cylindrical hole through an impressive amount of armor (and the splattered hypersonic steel from this is seriously unhealthy).
One of the quirks of kinetic energy weapons is that they cause more damage to armored targets than unarmored ones - unarmored targets end up with a hole through the middle with little damage between.

Sigh. I'm afraid this entire thread needs to be marked as a SPOILER thread now. I can't participate in this thread any more.