Dealing with the Inquisition

The inquisition is something to which we refer a lot in passing on the Safehold forum, but I thought that having a discussion of what to do with the inquisition when the G-4 falls and the EOC-Siddarmark alliance is able to enforce a policy with respects to the inquisition could invite constructive thinking.

This is not going to be as easy as it sounds. Certainly, there are no inquisitors left in the EOC or in those areas of Siddarmark controlled by the alliance. Or if there are, they are in hiding and effectively out of business in terms of carrying out their jobs as inquisitors. In addition to that, when the EOC enters Zion, they should be able to round up known inquisitors.

But the inquisition was literally a planet wide enterprise. In places like Desnair, Harchong, those parts of the borderlands still under Temple control, there will still be inquisitors and the institution of the inquisition will still function even though their HQ in Zion will no longer be able to direct their efforts. My own concern here is that we will see unholy alliances developing between the inquisition and the local potentates. The inquisition gets to act to guard orthodoxy on the one hand, but they also act as a secret police buttressing the authority of the local rulers. I am thinking Harchong and Desnair in particular. Unless the alliance is willing to invade those lands, there is not really much that can be done. Any policy the alliance adopts will have to recognize that.

So what should the policy be? My own conviction is that where ever possible, the inquisition should be completely abolished. There are those who have argued that some sort of modified or reformed inquisition might be in order for enforcing doctrinal compliance within the COGA itself. Having some experience with informal unappointed inquisitors in the church and the damage they can do, I have no sympathy at all for a formalized and officially sanctioned inquisition. Best to do away with it as far as it is possible as well as abolishing the Order of Schueler. At the same time I say this, once the COGA is defeated and its power to coerce broken, forcing it to act like a normal church, should they wish to reinstitute something like the inquisition to order their internal affairs, that is their affair as long as they stay within the civil law and clearly understand that they have no authority over non-COGA members.

A secondary consideration here is what to do with inquisititors as individuals. The current policy of executing inquisitors on sight was a measure taken in reprisal over what happened to Manthyr and his crew in Dohlar and Zion. It has been reinforced by the behavior of the inquisition as a whole in Siddarmark. In part the purpose is reprisal, in part it was implemented in the rather faint hope of inspiring better behavior on the part of the inquisition. In this last goal, it has obviously failed. What was justified under wartime necessity probably shouldn’t be sustained in time of peace. I think that the policy will have to revert to putting individuals on trial who have been guilty of criminal behavior and suiting the punishment to the crime the person has committed whether that person was acting as a member of the inquisition or as an individual in some other capacity. There are undoubtedly thousands of inquisitors who are guilty of nothing more than being a part of the system. Some of them have been serving as intendents to archbishops; many more are chaplains in the Temple armies working at tending to the spiritual care of the troops and encouraging the troops to do their duty in battle. These things are not in and of themselves criminal and shouldn’t be punished as such.

You are invited to opine away on this subject.

Don

Amen! To give an example, in our local HOA, we have a 'compliance committee' who are frequently seen walking the sidewalks in a very tight trio of bodies, examining each house for CCA excursions, and then sending a threatening letter to the owners. Due to term lengths, the current board has not (yet) been able to exterminate them.

There are always those that like to lord it over others, and being quite nasty about it, too! Yes, I, too was cited, but was able to 'beat the rap' by going to the council meeting with all of my surrounding neighbors to get the failure exempted (a nine-year-old satellite dish installation a foot out of compliance).

n7axw

'Normal Church'. Is the catholic church not a 'normal church'. Or are you referring to a modern church. If you are see witch hunts/trials in Africa and Sharia law.

As for the reasons for the policies towards inquisitors. It wasn't deterrence. It was part reprisal and part honest evaluation of guilt. The inquisition is the SS. Only worse. They have even more authority and are in charge of most official atrocities. The German army also participated many times in the various campaigns of genocide. So the situation is even more clear. As for being caught up in the system. That isn't an excuse. If you allow that you allow 'Following orders' to be a defense. You cannot do that and support punishment of anyone except Clyhntahn. Not even the Delfarahken inquisitors, who were executed at the start of BHD. They were following orders and there actions were considered perfectly acceptable by there superiors. Also for just being in the system see, Adolf Eichmann, he just loaded trains. Link below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann


As for letting the inquisition remain as long as it limits itself to internal matters. What are internal matters? Do members of the flock who have strayed but not officially left yet count? Do those who just left count? Do those who question doctrine but still identify as members count? Who determines who is a member and who is not? These and many more questions are problems. The further problem is that I refuse to grant that my neighbors have the right give someone else the right to execute, beat or imprison them. The government has that right by necessity(how else to enforce the law?). But allowing anyone else to have that is insanity. Can you imagine what various fringe religions groups would do if you gave them the right to do that to their members? You don't have to, just look at what some religions do and did when they did and do have that right.



dan92677
Comparing the inquisition to the homeowners association. There is a rather large difference. The inquisition can torture you to death and leaving it alive as an organization will leave it doing that.




Note: The problem of the inquisition in Harchong and Desnair, after the war is won, is an important one. However, I think the Desnarian crown might like the idea of removing the right of another organization to police its citizens. Many European monarchs did anyway. Harchong is more of a problem though. However the fact is that it might simply be impossible for Charis to do anything. Which would be unfortunate, but reality is reality(or in this case RFC's reality is his reality). So accepting a suboptimal situation is simply the way it may have to be.

My own conviction is that where ever possible, the inquisition should be completely abolished.

And (from the safeholdian point of view) who would protect the peoples adainst possible REAL heresy?

Dilandu wrote:

My own conviction is that where ever possible, the inquisition should be completely abolished.

And (from the safeholdian point of view) who would protect the peoples adainst possible REAL heresy?

The Church of Charis, apparently, does have an Inquisition, solely for monitoring Proscription compliance and without the Punishment behind it. The Order of Schueler there has a role a lot like, say, the Order of Pasquale: providing expert examination to assure that a rule for public health is maintained. Given what we know of the Inner Circle and its goals - going back to the Brotherhood of St. Zherneau in this case, probably - it can be seen as part of converting some Church roles into effectively secular, non-denominational public services.

From the naive Safeholdian point of view, it's still a Church office performing a Church function, albeit without the terror tradition and the Writ allow to stand behind it.

They do still have a problem terrestrial religions of the book have: the nasty, scary stuff is still right there in the text, ready for any revival at any time. I think terrestrial religions of the book manage, when they do, to avoid (e.g.) stoning adulterers, because the people with more humane values sit on those without, and shared social values across religions sit on that entire religious community in societies with strong religious pluralism and a tradition of the rule of law.

Safehold's got those to develop too, and Charis is on that. Clearly religious pluralism and the rule of law are, ah, controversial, but Safeholdians do have going for them that humane values have a fair hold on Safehold and are enshrined in the Book of Bedard.

Hi Jeff,

The Catholic Church is a "normal" church who appeals to the hearts of its people rather than exercising terror and political power to coerce them. Despite the presence of a form of the inquisition in the modern Catholic Chuch, I have a great deal of respect for what I see there.

No, the inquisition's future role should not include torture and murder. In fact I think that the institution should be done away with myself. However any church does have the right to order its internal affairs, discipline or exclude from its fellowship those who persist in being disruptive or teach against its doctrine. However that right is curbed by the civil law which means it doesn't include torture and murder.

Hi Dilandu,

"Protection against heresy" is vastly over rated. I am an American, after all...

Don

n7axw wrote:"Protection against heresy" is vastly over rated. I am an American, after all...

Don

Since a large number of Safeholdians are going to become atheists after the Big Reveal, which one member of the inner-circle already has, they won't accept any definition of "heresy." After all, you need a church to be heretical against, and they won't be members of one...

All the more reason why any agreement between the CoC and the CoGA needs to include protections from religion, and must limit the power of punishment within any religion to either excluding a person from participating in its activities for a time (ie. not attending mass, for example) or excommunication. That's all.

Let the civil authorities handle everything else, and toss the the Proscriptions on the ash heap of history, except for the ban on using electricity until the OBS is under human control. Enforce that by making the patent office a government entity, and any use of electricity illegal. RFC said that a guy experimenting with sparks in his basement won't bring down a Rakurai strike, but since the level of electricity that would pique the OBS' interest is unknown, better safe than sorry. The ban probably wouldn't have to last more than a generation or so, since the return of the archangels will probably lead to the shutdown of the OBS if Merlin can't figure out how to do it himself once the EoC captures the temple in the next couple of years.

McGuiness wrote:

n7axw wrote:"Protection against heresy" is vastly over rated. I am an American, after all...

Don

Since a large number of Safeholdians are going to become atheists after the Big Reveal, which one member of the inner-circle already has, they won't accept any definition of "heresy." After all, you need a church to be heretical against, and they won't be members of one...

All the more reason why any agreement between the CoC and the CoGA needs to include protections from religion, and must limit the power of punishment within any religion to either excluding a person from participating in its activities for a time (ie. not attending mass, for example) or excommunication. That's all.

Let the civil authorities handle everything else, and toss the the Proscriptions on the ash heap of history, except for the ban on using electricity until the OBS is under human control. Enforce that by making the patent office a government entity, and any use of electricity illegal. RFC said that a guy experimenting with sparks in his basement won't bring down a Rakurai strike, but since the level of electricity that would pique the OBS' interest is unknown, better safe than sorry. The ban probably wouldn't have to last more than a generation or so, since the return of the archangels will probably lead to the shutdown of the OBS if Merlin can't figure out how to do it himself once the EoC captures the temple in the next couple of years.

Yeah, exactly. As far as "protection against heresy" goes, the people of Safehold are going to have to get used to the idea that their neighbor's faith might be different than their own. The time for that lesson to be taught and absorbed is now so that, as far as possible, by the time of the great reveal, they've has a chance to get used to it.

McGuiness wrote:Since a large number of Safeholdians are going to become atheists after the Big Reveal, which one member of the inner-circle already has, they won't accept any definition of "heresy." After all, you need a church to be heretical against, and they won't be members of one...

All the more reason why any agreement between the CoC and the CoGA needs to include protections from religion, and must limit the power of punishment within any religion to either excluding a person from participating in its activities for a time (ie. not attending mass, for example) or excommunication. That's all.

Let the civil authorities handle everything else, and toss the the Proscriptions on the ash heap of history, except for the ban on using electricity until the OBS is under human control. Enforce that by making the patent office a government entity, and any use of electricity illegal. RFC said that a guy experimenting with sparks in his basement won't bring down a Rakurai strike, but since the level of electricity that would pique the OBS' interest is unknown, better safe than sorry. The ban probably wouldn't have to last more than a generation or so, since the return of the archangels will probably lead to the shutdown of the OBS if Merlin can't figure out how to do it himself once the EoC captures the temple in the next couple of years.

Not before the Reveal, Mac. The CoGA and the CoC are still religions based on the Writ. The Writ is God's Word and captures His desire for mankind. If my suspicions are correct, then some element of societal salvation doctrine is in play. That would suggests that any unbelievers threaten the salvation of all just for not believing. Until the Reveal and the Writ is discredited, such fundamental doctrines cannot be discredited.

Freedom of Religion is possible, freedom from religion is not before the Reveal.

PeterZ wrote:

McGuiness wrote:Since a large number of Safeholdians are going to become atheists after the Big Reveal, which one member of the inner-circle already has, they won't accept any definition of "heresy." After all, you need a church to be heretical against, and they won't be members of one...

All the more reason why any agreement between the CoC and the CoGA needs to include protections from religion, and must limit the power of punishment within any religion to either excluding a person from participating in its activities for a time (ie. not attending mass, for example) or excommunication. That's all.

Let the civil authorities handle everything else, and toss the the Proscriptions on the ash heap of history, except for the ban on using electricity until the OBS is under human control. Enforce that by making the patent office a government entity, and any use of electricity illegal. RFC said that a guy experimenting with sparks in his basement won't bring down a Rakurai strike, but since the level of electricity that would pique the OBS' interest is unknown, better safe than sorry. The ban probably wouldn't have to last more than a generation or so, since the return of the archangels will probably lead to the shutdown of the OBS if Merlin can't figure out how to do it himself once the EoC captures the temple in the next couple of years.

Not before the Reveal, Mac. The CoGA and the CoC are still religions based on the Writ. The Writ is God's Word and captures His desire for mankind. If my suspicions are correct, then some element of societal salvation doctrine is in play. That would suggests that any unbelievers threaten the salvation of all just for not believing. Until the Reveal and the Writ is discredited, such fundamental doctrines cannot be discredited.

Freedom of Religion is possible, freedom from religion is not before the Reveal.

True, Peter. But the time to make it clear that you don't go after dissenters with pitchforks and torches is now!

Don