CoGA submarines

Dilandu wrote:

n7axw wrote:Let's say that they could produce that. What good would it be except for uses where it could remain stationary? How many of them could they make?

Let me just repeat; vietnamese do that from worse position, and they reproduce the 1830-th style naval engine, which is lightyear far from the Watt machines.

Let's assume that the church could produce a workable steam engine with the information they currently have. What could they do with it? They don't have the batteries to power a submarine underwater, and existing Charisian sloops would still be faster and carry more powerful and accurate cannon than anything the NoG currently has should they use the steam engine to power a warship. Other than sailing against the wind, which is certainly an advantage that can't be discounted, what advantage would the extremely expensive and hard to make steam engine provide the CoGA before the jaws of the ICN clamp down on it?

From Merlin's viewpoint, Clyntahn giving the steam engine his blessing would be tremendously positive, since that means it's fine for them to be built all over the planet. The EoC would smile as well, since that would end the CoGA branding steamships as products of Shan-wei, and make them ecclesiastically acceptable. The prospect of eventually facing a NoG fleet powered by steam won't have them dancing for joy of course, but even if Mother Church wasn't bankrupt and could afford such a fleet, it would be years before it could be built, and by then the ICN would outclass it even more than they outclass the few NoG galleons still in existence, including Thirsk's galleons that are about to be sent to Daivy Zhone's locker.

Given the CoGA's relatively crude level of technology, the steam engine would be a money and research pit that would delay more productive research. That being the case I say go for it!

Dilandu wrote:

n7axw wrote:
Let's say that they could produce that. What good would it be except for uses where it could remain stationary? How many of them could they make?

Let me just repeat; vietnamese do that from worse position, and they reproduce the 1830-th style naval engine, which is lightyear far from the Watt machines.

When you mention Charis, you don't seem to be taking into account the reality that Charis cheated. Howsmyn had access to Owl which the COGA surely won't and there is nothing comparable in our own timeline either.

Your comment here makes it sound like they probably got the plans and diagrams elsewhere rather than coming up with on their own, perhaps the Brits or the French. Could the ability to do the machine work also have been imported from elsewhere?

I don't know that any of this is true. But my point is that if what they were doing is copy catting, your illustration doesn't work.

I'm not saying that anyone is dumb either in our timeline or Safeholds. But what I am saying that the COGA would have to develop a useful steam engine with only a description of general principles, without specific plans or diagrams out of their own resourses in the relatively short time they have left before the alliance deals with the remaining COGA armies and starts closing in on Zion. Further, they have to produce enough of the things to have an impact on their overall situation on either the military or the industrial side.

The prerequisites for meeting those goals are simply not there. I don't think it is possible for them to do it.

Don

n7axw wrote:
Your comment here makes it sound like they probably got the plans and diagrams elsewhere rather than coming up with on their own, perhaps the Brits or the French. Could the ability to do the machine work also have been imported from elsewhere?

No, they haven't. They have only the description of the engine; all designing work they do by themselves on this basis. If they have the specification, they would not have the boiler explosion onfirst attempt.

McGuiness wrote: They don't have the batteries to power a submarine underwater,

Please, re-read my first post in this topic. You don't need electricity to made a working coastal submarine (and even some ocean-type could be build without that). You could use pneumatic, or chemical engine to do so.

McGuiness wrote:Charisian sloops would still be faster and carry more powerful and accurate cannon than anything the NoG currently has should they use the steam engine to power a warship.

As i recall, both Crimean War and US Civil war expirience agreed about the fact that sailing ship could not fight a steam gunboat. The advantages of free maneuvrability and protected motion power is too great. If the Church would be able to put even a few steam gunboat in comission - even most primitive sidewheelers with walking beam-type - the effective force of current Charisian navy would be down to its ironclads. All galleons and schooners would be useless.

The main problem is, that currently Charis is wasting time by stucking to sail navy and refusing to build a lrage number of steamers. Simply - the Church, or Dohlar, or some other have chances to field a lot of steamers before Charis could do so, just because Charis isn't doing so. Charis could already comissioned a fleet of screw warships and transport, doubling it's milirtary and transporting capbailites, but they wasting the time and resources on the almost completely useless KH's. The current problems with Deshnarian raiders and lags in Siddarmarkina logistics clearly demonstrated, that Charis made a VERY BIG MISTAKE and gave the Church at least a chance to turn the table.

Dilandu wrote:

McGuiness wrote: They don't have the batteries to power a submarine underwater,

Please, re-read my first post in this topic. You don't need electricity to made a working coastal submarine (and even some ocean-type could be build without that). You could use pneumatic, or chemical engine to do so.

McGuiness wrote:Charisian sloops would still be faster and carry more powerful and accurate cannon than anything the NoG currently has should they use the steam engine to power a warship.

As i recall, both Crimean War and US Civil war expirience agreed about the fact that sailing ship could not fight a steam gunboat. The advantages of free maneuvrability and protected motion power is too great. If the Church would be able to put even a few steam gunboat in comission - even most primitive sidewheelers with walking beam-type - the effective force of current Charisian navy would be down to its ironclads. All galleons and schooners would be useless.

The main problem is, that currently Charis is wasting time by stucking to sail navy and refusing to build a lrage number of steamers. Simply - the Church, or Dohlar, or some other have chances to field a lot of steamers before Charis could do so, just because Charis isn't doing so. Charis could already comissioned a fleet of screw warships and transport, doubling it's milirtary and transporting capbailites, but they wasting the time and resources on the almost completely useless KH's. The current problems with Deshnarian raiders and lags in Siddarmarkina logistics clearly demonstrated, that Charis made a VERY BIG MISTAKE and gave the Church at least a chance to turn the table.

Granting the rest of your assertions for the purpose of this comment, if it does turn out as you suggest, Charis had the industrial plant to recover esp sinse sea worthy iron clads are already being produced.

Textev suggests that the ICN is already aware of the vulnerability of its galleons which is why Sharpfield hasn't moved into the Gulf of Dohlar.

Don

Dilandu wrote:

McGuiness wrote: They don't have the batteries to power a submarine underwater,

Please, re-read my first post in this topic. You don't need electricity to made a working coastal submarine (and even some ocean-type could be build without that). You could use pneumatic, or chemical engine to do so.

McGuiness wrote:Charisian sloops would still be faster and carry more powerful and accurate cannon than anything the NoG currently has should they use the steam engine to power a warship.

As i recall, both Crimean War and US Civil war expirience agreed about the fact that sailing ship could not fight a steam gunboat. The advantages of free maneuvrability and protected motion power is too great. If the Church would be able to put even a few steam gunboat in comission - even most primitive sidewheelers with walking beam-type - the effective force of current Charisian navy would be down to its ironclads. All galleons and schooners would be useless.

The main problem is, that currently Charis is wasting time by stucking to sail navy and refusing to build a lrage number of steamers. Simply - the Church, or Dohlar, or some other have chances to field a lot of steamers before Charis could do so, just because Charis isn't doing so. Charis could already comissioned a fleet of screw warships and transport, doubling it's milirtary and transporting capbailites, but they wasting the time and resources on the almost completely useless KH's. The current problems with Deshnarian raiders and lags in Siddarmarkina logistics clearly demonstrated, that Charis made a VERY BIG MISTAKE and gave the Church at least a chance to turn the table.

The other alternative could be land based torpedoes (original Whitehead torpedo concept) or possibly manned torpedoes (Japanese had multiple versions). Compressed air can take you along way - one way. A ton of gun powder packs a punch.
Mines are another option but the fusing could be twitchy as they can be contact only (or very close to shore).

Granting the rest of your assertions for the purpose of this comment, if it does turn out as you suggest, Charis had the industrial plant to recover esp sinse sea worthy iron clads are already being produced.

Currently they didn't even plant steam egnines on their armored galleons, making this ships, in fact, wunerable (which make no sence. The idea of ironclad warship is to be invunerable; and all-sail ironclad warship is logically impossible thing to build, especially considering that the Charis already have effective steam engines and more than able to put at least small steam machines on ironclad galleons, for battle maneuvering).

Textev suggests that the ICN is already aware of the vulnerability of its galleons which is why Sharpfield hasn't moved into the Gulf of Dohlar.

And for some reason they decided not to do anything about the problem. There is the ideom that "the best is the enemy of the good"; currently Charis aimed to the best, disregarding the simple "good enough".

The other alternative could be land based torpedoes (original Whitehead torpedo concept) or possibly manned torpedoes (Japanese had multiple versions). Compressed air can take you along way - one way. A ton of gun powder packs a punch. Mines are another option but the fusing could be twitchy as they can be contact only (or very close to shore).

I agree, it's possible, and the naval mines, actually, is the most possible. They could be build even with contact fuses, and they could be dangerous enough.

At the time the Rotweilers were being built, the steam engines weren't available for service. What they represent now is a transitional design.

Don

n7axw wrote:At the time the Rotweilers were being built, the steam engines weren't available for service. What they represent now is a transitional design.

Don

And instead of concentrating resources on steam navy Charisian wasted them on the "transitional" sail ironclads? And they didn't even try to refit them with steam engines after they became avaliable (or even provide navy with steam tugs).

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