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What If?

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: What If?
Post by Dilandu   » Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:35 am

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McGuiness wrote:However, OAR seems to make it very clear that only one other colony fleet escaped,


Yes - from Earth. But there are another world in Federation, capable to do so.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

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Re: What If?
Post by McGuiness   » Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:06 am

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Dilandu wrote:
McGuiness wrote:However, OAR seems to make it very clear that only one other colony fleet escaped,
Yes - from Earth. But there are another world in Federation, capable to do so.
Whoops, RFC actually addressed this in depth, and Operation Ark was the only fleet to successfully escape without being discovered and wiped out later. Here's the link: http://www.davidweber.net/faqs/index/series:6 Click on the question Why didn't the Terran Federation send out swarms of automated vessels with virtual personalities? Also, since Operation Ark had two separate terraforming fleets, why didn't they colonize two planets?

RFC makes it quite clear in the last couple of paragraphs that no other fleet made it out, as much as the TF would have liked to have launched multiple Operation Arks. It simply ran out of the time, ships, and space needed to make that possible.

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: What If?
Post by ChaChaCharms   » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:28 am

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My only hope is that this series does not end like the stand alone "Out of the Dark". Don't get me wrong, I loved the story and the plot line, but the ending totally threw me (which is what RFC is good at, but it came as a complete surprise and a person grasping a straws came to my mind).
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Re: What If?
Post by n7axw   » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:36 am

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Chief-CWH wrote:

so far as is known.



Humm... so far as is known... Kind of a weasel phrase, isn't it? Known to whom? Merlin? The Archangels? The reader? You could while away a lot of time thinking about that...and come up with no results at all. ;)

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: What If?
Post by McGuiness   » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:43 pm

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n7axw wrote:
Chief-CWH wrote: so far as is known.
Humm... so far as is known... Kind of a weasel phrase, isn't it? Known to whom? Merlin? The Archangels? The reader? You could while away a lot of time thinking about that...and come up with no results at all. ;)

Don
Yeah, it's weasely, but in this case I'm confident that RFC is being deliberately vague just to play with us. Unless the author is leaving himself room for a better idea of course, which is the usual reason for vagueness - just look at the current maps we have available and the additions that RFC adds with each book to support the plot.

Introducing any other humans to the story would destroy the necessity of breaking Safehold loose from the grip of the CoGA, and that would pretty much ruin the plot and deliver a very unsatisfactory ending. I have yet to see RFC do that. (Yeah, he'll admit that he should have been a bit more blatant in how he portrayed a certain major character in "Out of the Dark" so the ending would have been more obvious, but the clues were there...) He certainly won't have a Deus ex machina ending to an entire series! Whatever is under the Temple and however Merlin accomplishes his goal of breaking the CoGA and returning humanity to the stars to wreak vengeance on the Gbaba, Safehold will do it on its own.

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: What If?
Post by Keith_w   » Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:26 pm

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McGuiness wrote:
Time travel would be far too much of a Deus ex machina development, and RFC doesn't do those. (Despite the objections of those who didn't realize the nature of a major character in "Out of the Dark" until the end of the book.) So no, there won't be any time travel in the Safehold series, or the TF would have used it to get the 75 years it needed to overcome the Gbaba's tech advantage so humanity could destroy them. If that had happened, then there wouldn't be a Safehold series, would there? ;)

There are people who didn't realize that within a few pages of his being introduced? Amazing.
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A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: What If?
Post by Keith_w   » Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:30 pm

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McGuiness wrote:quote="n7axw" quote="Chief-CWH"
so far as is known. /quote
Humm... so far as is known... Kind of a weasel phrase, isn't it? Known to whom? Merlin? The Archangels? The reader? You could while away a lot of time thinking about that...and come up with no results at all. ;)

Don
/quote Yeah, it's weasely, but in this case I'm confident that RFC is being deliberately vague just to play with us. Unless the author is leaving himself room for a better idea of course, which is the usual reason for vagueness - just look at the current maps we have available and the additions that RFC adds with each book to support the plot.

Introducing any other humans to the story would destroy the necessity of breaking Safehold loose from the grip of the CoGA, and that would pretty much ruin the plot and deliver a very unsatisfactory ending. I have yet to see RFC do that. (Yeah, he'll admit that he should have been a bit more blatant in how he portrayed a certain major character in "Out of the Dark" so the ending would have been more obvious, but the clues were there...) He certainly won't have a Deus ex machina ending to an entire series! Whatever is under the Temple and however Merlin accomplishes his goal of breaking the CoGA and returning humanity to the stars to wreak vengeance on the Gbaba, Safehold will do it on its own.

I don't think it is a weasel word ... the expectation was, based on current abilities, Terra would be destroyed, but no one went back to check, since that would defeat the purpose of the colony expedition.
--
A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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Re: What If?
Post by MPCatchup   » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:19 pm

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This was kind of my orginal purpose for posting this topic. No one in Operation ARK went back to Earth to check. We don't know if in searching for the escaped ships of Operation ARK the Gbaba had to pull enough forces from the siege of Earth to give Earth a brief reprieve. We don't know what technologies were being developed that could have allowed Earth to defeat the Gbaba. We don't know that when the Gbaba finally defeated Earth that there wasn't a shotgun effect with any and all ships that weren't initially destroyed.
Not saying that any of these could have happened, just that no one on Safehold could possible know either way. Just thought it would make for a good discussion. it could also be an interesting storyline if when Safehold does get really to go after the Gbaba they find another empire of humans, or even other human colonies trying to become strong enough to go after the Gbaba.
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Re: What If?
Post by McGuiness   » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:23 pm

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Keith_w wrote:I don't think it is a weasel word ... the expectation was, based on current abilities, Terra would be destroyed, but no one went back to check, since that would defeat the purpose of the colony expedition.
True, but based on the link I previously posted in this thread where RFC addressed the possibility of other "Operation Arks," he said the following:

"Had there been time, the fleet that was sent to Safehold would have been followed by a second attempt, and a third attempt — as long as the Federation lasted — to create “hidden” colonies, with each expedition dispatched in a totally different direction from any other expeditions. The problem is that there wasn’t time, and there wasn’t a sufficient covering force to get more than one colony fleet out and away in the window available to them.

The clock ran out on the human race. It was that simple, exactly as Admiral Pei remarked to his chief of staff just before his final battle."

RFC seems to get a kick out of being intentionally vague even when it isn't necessary. That distracts us from those times when his lack of clarity is actually hiding something! ;)

"Oh bother", said Pooh as he glanced through the airlock window at the helmet he'd forgotten to wear.
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Re: What If?
Post by n7axw   » Wed Apr 08, 2015 10:52 pm

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I don't really think that the existence of other human beings in the universe impacts the Safehold story one way or the other, especially since no one on Safehold including Merlin or Nimue would be aware of another colony. For that matter one of earth's daughter worlds in the TF could have gotten off a successful expedition and no one on earth would have been aware of it.

The point is about all this means is that it is not categorically possible to say with complete certainty one way or the other. All you can say is "As far as is known.."

Therefore it doesn't impact the Safehold story...

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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