CoGA submarines

McGuiness wrote:
Since the CoGA doesn't have the steam engine

Yes they do. One of their agents stole the plans from a Charisian in Siddar City under the cover of a riot.

turol wrote:Yes they do. One of their agents stole the plans from a Charisian in Siddar City under the cover of a riot.

And u see absolutely no reason, why the Charis enemies could not duplicate the charisian ability to get the industry from the clear air.

Dilandu wrote:

turol wrote:Yes they do. One of their agents stole the plans from a Charisian in Siddar City under the cover of a riot.

And u see absolutely no reason, why the Charis enemies could not duplicate the charisian ability to get the industry from the clear air.

Yep. The notion of a COGA getting a useful steam engine before the end of the current war is unlikely in the extreme. I wonder if they will try.

Don

n7axw wrote:
Yep. The notion of a COGA getting a useful steam engine before the end of the current war is unlikely in the extreme. I wonder if they will try.

Don

Well, the Charis was able to do much less likely event. And, actually - as i mentioned before - we have historical proofs, that the steam engines could be reproduced even in the relatively non-idustrialized society. It's Vietnam in 1838; they actually build a few steamers for themselves.

So, i think if the Church would adopt a crash program - and in this matter, both the Clyntahn, Dushrain and Magiwair would be in support - they could obtain working simple-expansion engine in one year timescale.

turol wrote:

McGuiness wrote:Since the CoGA doesn't have the steam engine

Yes they do. One of their agents stole the plans from a Charisian in Siddar City under the cover of a riot.

I'm well aware of the notes that discuss the steam engine which some CoGA agents stole from the Charisian engineer they murdered in Siddar City, but those notes only discuss the concept of the steam engine. They don't contain any diagrams, specifications, or the technical requirements to build one.

I'll agree that those notes give the church a major head start from where they were ("What makes those Shan-wei cursed iron boats move?????") but those notes won't allow the church to build any steam engines before it's probably too late. They simply don't have the tools to make the tools. They can't make the high quality steel required for the pressures involved, and they're likely to take a catastrophic failure as a sign of the archangel's disapproval of the entire concept. (And they will have catastrophic failures.)

RFC could of course throw a wrench in my reasoning, and it wouldn't be the first time. I'm all for Clyntahn giving the steam engine Mother Church's stamp of approval. But from what we know about what the CoGA captured, they simply don't have the specs to make a useful steam engine without a significant research effort. They don't do research well. It's hard to do with an inquisitor breathing down your neck!

Dilandu wrote:

n7axw wrote:
Yep. The notion of a COGA getting a useful steam engine before the end of the current war is unlikely in the extreme. I wonder if they will try.

Don

Well, the Charis was able to do much less likely event. And, actually - as i mentioned before - we have historical proofs, that the steam engines could be reproduced even in the relatively non-idustrialized society. It's Vietnam in 1838; they actually build a few steamers for themselves.

So, i think if the Church would adopt a crash program - and in this matter, both the Clyntahn, Dushrain and Magiwair would be in support - they could obtain working simple-expansion engine in one year timescale.

Before Charis tried steam, they had a fairly well developed capacity for machine work. They had plans and diagrams downloaded from Owl.

The church has none of that. They have a description of principles from that stolen briefcase. No Owl. No actual plans or diagrams. There is a minimum of 150 years difference between the tech available to the Temple and that in use in Charis.

As for a preindustrial society building stream engines, yes. James Watt and his predecessors built steam engines suitable for pumping water from mines. In fact steam power gave birth to the industrial age. Pokermind comments that those engines had leather sleeves and about 15 to 20 hp max. And the things were huge for the amount of power actually put out.

Let's say that they could produce that. What good would it be except for uses where it could remain stationary? How many of them could they make?

In short, given the time they have before the alliance closes in, I doubt that their time and effort would turn out to be a paying proposition.

Don

thanatos wrote:SPOILER ALERT

“I think that’s probably true.” Thirsk nodded. “It’s not something I plan to count on, but one thing we have to avoid is overestimating Charis’ capabilities. I know it’s better to be pessimistic than to be overly optimistic, but we can’t paralyze ourselves with ‘what-ifs.’ Unless they have a hell of a lot more regular galleons based at Claw Island than reports suggest, we can meet their fleet on more than equal terms, and even an armored galleon needs spars to move. Between our own galleons and Lieutenant Zhwaigair’s screw-galleys — and that other project of his — I think we’d have a pretty good chance of handing them a serious defeat if they were foolish enough to come out where we can get at them. And the fact that they seem to be staying close to home at Claw Island now that they’ve retaken it suggests they may feel the same way about it.”

One does have to wonder what that "other project" might be after all. Something like a submarine perhaps? Perhaps Zhwaigair had a brainstorm after the hearing the reports of the ships purposefully sunk in Shwei Bay during Mahnthyr's original raid in the Gulf of Harchong (in AMT)?

Mines would be my guess ... If they have/get a dispensation for percussion caps then impact mines should be entirely possible.

n7axw wrote:As for a preindustrial society building stream engines, yes. James Watt and his predecessors built steam engines suitable for pumping water from mines. In fact steam power gave birth to the industrial age. Pokermind comments that those engines had leather sleeves and about 15 to 20 hp max. And the things were huge for the amount of power actually put out.

Let's say that they could produce that. What good would it be except for uses where it could remain stationary? How many of them could they make?

I'd just hope that some spiritual descendant of the Harchongese reformer behind the gunpowder dispensation bribe sees even the primitive, stationary steam engine - already given a dispensation for hopeful jihad purposes - and thinks about using it for replacing some of the most back-breaking serf labors. Chugga chugga chugga, listen to the first whispers of the revolution....

And I'd like to thank Zhaspyr Clyntahn for making freedom in Harchong possible!

n7axw wrote:
Let's say that they could produce that. What good would it be except for uses where it could remain stationary? How many of them could they make?

Let me just repeat; vietnamese do that from worse position, and they reproduce the 1830-th style naval engine, which is lightyear far from the Watt machines.

They simply don't have the tools to make the tools

Oh, how unconvinent. You know, neither do Charis. And it's simply impossible for the Charis to create this tools in such small time. Still, they were able to "miracliously" create something like 1890th armored cruiser in timescale that even the Royal Navy shipyards would envy.

You know, they didn't even have steam engine until YOG 895. And now they have armored cruiser on 10000 tonn scale with triple-expansion engines and Harvey armor in something near comission. So, they just created their own steam-era industry in... two years. Even Stalin would be impressed by such rate of industrialisation.

I.e.: It's just impossible to do so, even if you have all blueprints in the universe. You simply need time to build tools and machinery to this projects. And it cannot be done with the waterwheels.