HQ Snippet #21 3-27-15

lyonheart wrote:Maikel told Irys that if the CoC simply survives, it will fundamentally change the CoGA more than it has in the near thousand years since the creation.

That isn't as some part of a reconciled CoGA as PeterZ has suggested, but that the CoGA will be compelled to adapt to the effects of the simple existence of the CoC, in what may seem small or very subtle differences at first if the CoGA notices them at all, which Maikel said they were still largely ignorant of, yet are quite dramatic in their full flower.

Can we make a list of all those we think of?

Maikel is evidently watching the CoGA at least as closely as Duchairn's attempts to study him

L

Let's see...
1 - The Church of Charis does not practice the Question and barely has an Inquisition. It's not even cordial to CoGA Inquisitors.... The CoC Inquisition is just about monitoring Proscription compliance; as such, it may as well be a secular law enforcement body, much as so many Church activities are essentially public services.

2 - CoC Archbishops stay with their sees, for the most part. The exceptions are:
(a) travel for convocations on a yearly (I think?) nominal schedule, and I'm not sure Tellesberg is even a fixed location for those, and
(b) the Archbishop of Charis himself, as primate, does travel around a lot, with (so far) the Bishop of Tellesberg filling in in the non-primate archbishop role while he's away.

3 - Archbishops are to be selected locally - there's no Vicarate appointing them from afar to whom they are instead responsible.

4 - Confirmation of secular titles may not be running through the Church of Charis as such, but instead either the specific local archbishopric or none at all. (I'm clearly not clear on this one - hopefully someone else is.)

5 - This one is behind all the rest, but it bears specific mention. The Church of Charis is tolerant of other churches and beliefs. It makes no claim to compel obedience or orthodoxy. It's there to teach and guide, at most.

A really sneaky move is that the local choice of archbishops goes back to a prior tradition on Safehold, which had its own backing by the Church of the time. So it's hardly something the Archangels would condemn, and Staynair justified it using the very same doctrinal essay, On Change, that was used to make the move to central Church authority in the first place. So making the theological argument against him would be a double-edged sword.

But local choice of archbishops is a gateway for freedom of conscience generally. It means limited central Church authority, room for particular districts to differ not just on personnel but even on teachings. Just getting along with Temple Loyalists (from traditional through Reformist) and maintaining their own right to exist makes the Church of Charis an ongoing statement that it's okay to disagree, and the only body that would lay down a law backed by fire and iron will not do so.

If you give the Church of Charis the right to exist that way, you undercut your own claim to moral authority putting anyone to the Question yourself, or other punishments short of it. It doesn't mean a bright shining era of full freedom of conscience for all, but so long as the CoC exists, that door is open and people will be putting their dreams (or nightmares, for Clyntahn) on the far side of it.

Hi PeterZ,

My comments below between the **.

[quote="PeterZ"][quote="lyonheart"]Hi PeterZ,

Where is the textev that the CoGA has cleansed 'itself numerous times'?

Given the mysterious death of Seijin Khody, it hasn't been cleansed in a very long time, regardless of any public pronouncements, ie any have been more cosmetic than effective.

We have no indication of any such cleansing in the last 200 years or so since St Everard was murdered, which is rather long to wait hoping something happens for the better .[/quote]

Too literal, Lyonheart. Those changes you metioned represent adjustments. Not all were good, but they did maintain a continuity within the Church. No textev, butit is safe to assume there were other similar changes and shifts.


** So continuity or 'adjustments' are better than any evidence of true cleansing?

From the textev we have, the usurpation of power by the inquisition was easily the biggest change in the CoGA administration in almost a thousand years, and it certainly wasn't a cleansing, though I expect that how it was passed off to any of the laity who heard about it.

What are some other changes and shifts that you think might be comparable?**


[quote="lyonheart"]
Given that the circle waited 20 years without there being a cleansing implies they're so rare they would be signally recognised.

Once the reputations of the vicars Nynian has had assassinated become public thanks to OWL, that Clyntahn's supporters have been protected by the inquisition to continue their criminal acts as long as they supported him, how much lower can the vicarate's reputation fall?

Since losing the jihad obviously means the CoGA is no longer being blessed by God for some reason [what did they do to be so punished?], perhaps those surprised might consider that the CoC and reformists are right after all.

Given that the Holy Writ likely teaches that the victory over the fallen was inevitable, the alliance victory proves God is on their side.

Especially when the CoGA members experience the results of the alliance winning which are largely positive.
[/quote]

Changes in the internal dynamics of the Church happen consistently. Did the Group of 4 spring from the ground one fine morning? No, that core structure shifted from something like the lieutenants of the Grand Vicar to the actual powers behind the throne. The same can be said about the Inquisition. It took time to shift from one order of several responsible for fighting heresy to the judge, jury and executioner with respect to addressing heresy.

The CoGA has changed over time. I don't believe I need textev to believe the CoGA is still changing and has been until OAR.


** From Maikel's explanation to Irys, the mere survival of the CoC will compel permanent paradigm changes in the CoGA.

I imagine some changes have already begun to ooze their way into the CoGA, partly from the few paying attention to what the CoC is saying and recognizing the vast chasm between them, and others who witness the effects of the CoC doctrine in making the people happier, NTM more productive etc.**


[quote="lyonheart"]
What evidence is there that Rhobair wants, let alone sees any chance of 'healing' the CoGA?

Duchairn's renewal of faith is a personal matter, totally independent of what was happening in the CoGA; there is no indication he's wanted, desired, mentioned or tried to reform anything about the CoGA, nor has his example generated much interest by his colleagues in following his example.

That alone indicates how far from salvage the vicarate is.

Being a realist, knowing all of the above, hoping let alone expecting to heal the schism is rather remote in Rhobair's thinking or planning in my opinion.
[/quote]

I believe that Rhobair wants a unified CoGA. If he thinks the jihad can force the recalitrants back into the fold, he would sadly pursue the jihad until he achieves victory.


** Duchairn may want a unified CoGA, but I think he's smart enough to have finally recognised what Nahrmahn saw back in BSRA, that Charis in essentially unconquerable by the temple.

From some of his thoughts he's not very happy about all the exemptions Clyntahn has made to adopt the new technologies to fight the jihad; this implies he'd prefer to rely more on God, ie his belief or faith that true faith and confidence in the Lord alone is all that's needed to triumph, is very interesting in that shows he sees the danger of copying the innovations, yet doesn't seem to appreciate what not adopting those innovations would mean, which is somewhat surprising in someone so realistic about so much else.**


I also believe that he wants to reform the CoGA. I don't believe he can accomplish this without another bloody purge. This time of the Inquisition. I believe he recognizes this.


** Your implication is that he has planned on destroying the inquisition, at least in the vicinity of the temple and hopefully Zion; but given all its undercover agents etc, how can he expect to hold onto any power when any allies he may have left are being struck down in droves?

Given the size and scope of the inquisition, especially Clyntahn's vast expansion of its manpower, he's going to need a lot more than a few friendly temple guards.

The inquisition won't be his only enemy.

All those interested in maintaining their power and perks, ie the rest of the vicarate and all their family clans, NTM all the remaining 'faithful nations' are going to be stopping him ASAP.

Perhaps you can mention who his true allies might be after he succeeds in eliminating Clyntahn, and begins to execute what you think is his agenda, because from all the evidence he would be rather lonely.**


His attitudes about reform were sufficient for Hauwyrd Wylsyn to approach him with that letter. This was almost the last gasp of the Zion Circle. Samyl Wylsyn the principle figure of the Zion Circle was not totally against the idea of a CoC. He recognized that the Church of Charis and the soon to be Empire would not submit to the CoGA hierarchy again. He could accept that. This is one of the same Wylsyns that believed they were descended from the archangels and tasked with protecting the CoGA. They have been doing that since before Schuler died.

Samyl Wylsyn was almost ready to invite Rhobair into the circle. Would he have done that had not believed Rhobair was not totally averse to reform? If Wylsyn could accept a separate CoC albeit with difficulty, might Rhobair also be willing to accept a separate CoC? No textev, but certainly a data point to consider in projecting decisions for Rhobair.


** You're the one claiming he wanted reconciliation, how do you reconcile your own internal conflict that he already might accept separation?.

Samyl Wylsyn was willing to contact Rhobair, to test the extent of his then new reborn faith; if he was so eager to do as you say, no wonder the circle fell so quickly, if such simple desire or hoping something was true was the extent or measure of the circle's vetting process.

My reading of the circle is that it was far more wise, being very careful and circumspect, the vetting process rather long and arduous; NTM among other things the circle didn't have the time left to vet anyone, let alone Rhobair, assuming he was willing, which from the textev, he wasn't.

Beyond that single contact its all your speculation, so to read so much into a few unknown words at a single breakfast is again really twisting things to match your claims.

Didn't you have the impression Hauwyrd's letter was something he did on his own, along with all the other things he did those last days without telling Samyl?

The gap between the doctrinal separation Samyl and the circle was willing to accept, regretfully but with full understanding of why, and Rhobair's recognition that some kind of reform is needed is rather vast and deep; ignoring or glossing over that divide doesn't impress me that your claims hold much water, if anything rather the reverse.

Rhobair being the practical sort of the textev, not your phantasm, I suspect offering recognition to the CoC and other reformists is really a precondition he knows he has to start with.

Of course that means he may not last all that long when the rest of the vicarate NTM the CoGA find out.**


[quote="lyonheart"]
What are the terms you think the alliance must accept?

What peace can Rhobair promise will persist beyond him when any hints of negotiation or admission of guilt will immediately trigger an internal civil war in the CoGA?

After more than 20 years of running the inquisition, who's left that isn't a Clyntahn crony?

10%? 5%? 2%

You seriously think the inquisition is going to accept its destruction quietly?

Even if Rhobair's peace overtures are truly honest, what chance are they in any way practical or worthwhile in pursuing?
[/quote]
There may well be more that you credit here. Bishop Maik in Dohlar doesn't seem to be cut from the same Clyntahn cloth. He subtly suggested that Thirsk take care of his own before doing anything rash. Had Maik been a Clyntahnista, Thirsk would have died for displaying enough for Maik to recognize as unease with the Inquisition's policies.

Even so, as I said above the Inquisiton needs to be purged quickly and thoroughly for Rhobair to have a chance at doing anything. Purging them from Zion is the first step.


** "Rots o' ruck."

Apparently Clyntahn has seen to it that the inquisition forces are the largest around the temple and Zion, NTM it has the only firearms.

While the Temple guard might be able to surprise many of them, the idea all the unknown undercover agents won't take revenge on anyone they perceive as a threat, Rhobair obviously being target number one, is asking a bit much.

Bishop Maik is such an obvious rare exception as Thirsk fully recognised, that he clearly indicates the other 95-99% are Clyntahn's.

I think the good ones are very greatly outnumbered.

You still haven't mentioned what terms the alliance must accept, or the prospect of any of Rhobair's offered promises being actually carried out and fulfilled?**


[quote="lyonheart"]
How can a disarmed, impoverished church enforce any of its peace promises, even if it were willing to try?

Ignoring such petty peace overtures, what I can only see as vapor; the EoC will actually be quite properly seen as being prudent and wise in doing so, not giving up it's costly yet worthy prize of victory for 'a mess of pottage' of such pathetic promises.

Since the CoGA has pledged to destroy the EoC, why can't it destroy the CoGA in return, in simple reciprocity as Admiral Yairley pointed out in HFaF, since an eye for an eye is evidently in the Holy Writ?
[/quote]
An eye for an eye is not a call for vengeance, Lyonheart. It is call for limiting vengeance to only an eye for an eye and not more than that. An eye for an eye is a call for justice.

** While that may be our current interpretation of that call for justice, but that isn't what the CoGA and their priests are teaching their 'faithful' is it?

So I think their laity can at least grasp the principle of reciprocity, whether or not the CoC acts as it so very obviously could.**


Because Clyntahn was unjust, does justice demand the CoC and the EoC destroy the CoGA? Is that justice from the average Safeholdian's POV? Nynian can attest that not all the Vicarate were like Clyntahn. The most outspoken opponents of Clyntahn are dead. There are still those that may well oppose Clyntahn's and his minions if given the opportunity. An opportunity like Clyntahn dead and his minions purged out of Zion.

With the key driver of the jihad dead and the remaining hierarch offering to negotiate a peace, is it justice as seen by Safeholdians to continue to fight and seek the destruction of God's Church? God has removed the primary threat to the CoC and EoC with Clyntahn's death. Why fight further if the CoC's grievance's can be addressed without more bloodshed?

I don't believe this is best for the CoC. I do believe that most Safehodians would consider continuing the war under those conditions unjust.


** First of all, as I've pointed out repeatedly, Charis has never said they want or intend to destroy the CoGA [granted its Merlin's private vow that will be eventually kept over generations], but all their public ire has been aimed solely at the Go4 who started the whole mess, as has the republic's evident war aims also made clear.

So rather than destroying the CoGA, the CoC, the other reformists and the alliance can all claim [as they have] that they're trying to restore it to what God intended.

Unfortunately for the CoGA, separating the Go4 from the vicarate and the CoGA isn't an easy surgery the rest of the CoGA wants or even realises that it strongly needs such surgery, so its going to have to be a rather painful removal.

If Rhobair recognizes reform is required, eliminating not just the inquisition [another obvious precondition for any serious talks] but removing the Go4 itself from power and preventing any possible future 'restoration' or reinvention is not only required as other threads have discussed previously; of course that immediately sets up the question of how that can be enforced when all the remaining powers that be are no longer in power, if they're that lucky.

I think Rhobair sees that the Go4 must be removed from power, and prevented from ever regaining it, even if Magwair and Trynair don't.

So how long will they remain his allies when they find out?

Will they be among the first he removes from office, if he's that 'lucky'?

Secondly, even if your straw-man argument were correct, how would the CoGA laity know the alliance continued to fight to destroy the CoGA long after it had clearly won and achieved their survival?

By that argument, Charis was wrong to help Siddarmark even a little, because clearly [at least to us omniscient readers] it had already won effective independence from the temple thanks to its naval superiority, aside from the occasional Rakurai, of course.

Nearly all the CoGA congregations won't have a clue the war-fighting gap is that huge until long after this war is over, some evidently from painful personal experience in the following religious wars.

If the allies had held off occupying Japan, as its militarists wanted, to allow it to recover NTM preserve their power, which is what you're claiming Rhobair is angling for, rather than demilitarize not only its war-making potential but the society itself to assure it wouldn't ever threaten them again, they would rightly be seen as letting that plague just fester, leaving it to their children or grandchildren to clean up the full mess, not very wise at all.

Again, since the Go4 first attempted to destroy Charis, then proclaimed the jihad when that failed, as the CoGA membership know full well, the Go4 is the true culprit and how else can they be removed except by force?

The onus of demonstrating it has forever reformed remains entirely in the CoGA's court, unless the alliance maintains a military presence in Zion etc; so what other proofs do you think the CoC and alliance can seriously accept?


[quote="lyonheart"]
How is naturally fighting for their survival somehow seen as evil?

Since their war is aimed at the Go4, not the vast membership of the CoGA spread across the continents, the EoC has never threatened to destroy the bulk of the CoGA membership [unlike the CoGA], ie the church in general or their beliefs, and has plainly made that point repeatedly even in private conversations, as well as sermons and public pronouncements, so twisting their struggle into an obvious evil seems too much of a stretch.
[/quote]
Fighting for one's life is not evil. Continuing to fight when the threat to one's life is obviously removed may be evil. An eye but no more than an eye for an eye, heh?
[quote="lyonheart"]
Exactly when or how did the EoC state it only wanted to reform the CoGA?

Since even the TL's in Tellesberg know the CoGA has promised only annihilation to all of Charis etc regardless of whether they are fervent TL's, and all saw that promise being fulfilled in Siddarmark especially by our ex TL's now anti-CoGA soldiers, I doubt many would be upset if the alliance announced it was ensuring such atrocities would never happen to its citizens again.

The alliance menu of options is far greater than Duchairn's, and his is far more limited than you've suggested.

L
[/quote]

Sorry, Lyonheart, but I don't believe you credit sufficiently the reverence for the CoGA that exists in the hearts of most Safeholdians. To believe that the CoGA is beyond redemption is to believe that God gave mankind an imperfect gift. It would be far easier for the laity to believe that the men of the CoGA failed their duty. Yet Duchairn provides the counter example that although all men can fail, some might be redeemed through God's Grace and Love.

Cayleb and Sharley might persuade many within the Empire if not most that the CoC will remain separate from the CoGA to act as a counter balance should other men in the future take the CoGA into another unjust jihad. I doubt they can persuade more than a small minority that the CoGA must be destroyed. Its not that they had to state they did not want to destroy the CoGA only reform it, there is simply no appetite in their Empire to destroy the CoGA if it can be avoided.

The God that breathed life into their bodies and gave the Adams the knowledge to begin life on Safehold gave mankind the Church. Destroying that Gift is tantamount to turning away from God. Deal with the men responsible for the atrocities just as the ICA has done to Inquisitors in the fighting. Reform the CoGA back to where the archangels' original structure to make it more difficult for other men to abuse the power granted the CoGA. All this can be supported by most Safeholdians. Destroying the CoGA when the hierarchy has conceded their errors would be going too far.

This isn't my view. It is the view I believe exists on Safehold given the way Safehold was founded. This view will lead the CoC and EoC to accept an offer to negotiate with the CoGA if Clyntahn and the Inquisition have been neutralized to a large extent. Their demands might lead to a resumption of hostilities or might lead to acceptable reform. That is to be seen.[/quote]


** Again you're arguing against a straw man of your own imagining.

So Merlin should give up and turn himself off?

Right.

Seriously?

You really think RFC has created such an impossible situation our heroes won't somehow succeed?

By the time the alliance takes the temple in a year or so, there won't be that many TL's left in contact with the temple or Zion, basically just the western KotTL and northern Harchong; or less than a third of the current CoGA continental population, while the rest devolve to national churches, so the chaos and confusion within the CoGA will probably mean very disorganized opposition to the reformists etc.

Again the CoC, reformists and the alliance have never said they want or intend to destroy the CoGA; they have always distinguished their war aims as ending the Go4's evil rule from the CoGA, ie restoring the church to what God intended, so all your above concerns are moot at best.

Your definition of 'acceptable reform' needs to be further enunciated, since its so worthless at the moment, leaving aside the chance any acceptable honest reforms can get by the inquisition and all the other vested powers, not just the vicarate, which is infinitesimal.

You apparently assume that the CoGA's obvious generational corruption isn't a problem for the poor masses of ignorant uninformed serfs etc who devoutly worship all as they've been taught, though its obvious to anyone with a brain regarding the church's systemic sins, but the serfs etc are somehow quite aware of the many failings of their local leadership, but have never considered the same mortal corrupt men are running the vicarate etc and never connect the dots, nor have a clue of how deep and how long the rot has piled up in Zion and the temple.

Right.

I don't think they're that ignorant or self deceived, that like Nahrmahn they can still believe in God and know the temple and vicarate are corrupt if not evil, that they obviously serve the dark; and thanks to OWL's broadsides, the odds of information informing them correctly might be shifting faster than you think.

What are the odds that the MHoG may learn of Nynian and the SSK's news on the march from propaganda leaflets from the sky courtesy of rockets and balloons, or at least that's what Nahrmahn and OWL arrange?

Until the alliance dictates terms in Zion or at the temple, the bulk of the CoGA continental members won't accept them as an equal power, which they obviously will be, a prerequisite to accepting your proposed reforms including recognition of the reformists as also godly worshipers, though how they survived proves God is more with them than the temple, until your reforms manage that there will still be wars and atrocities by those god fearing CoGA members upon any who rightly point out the obvious CoGA faults, and of course any righteous response by the alliance etc will trigger another religious war and be their fault, after all if there weren't any reformists etc the CoGA atrocities wouldn't have happened.

Right.

Furthermore, it isn't just the inquisition that needs to be reformed.

The Go4 and their potential or likely replacements prevented from taking such power as well; how Rhobair plans to accomplish that will be fascinating to read if he's thought that far ahead, but I'm not sure he has.

In short its an impossible task you've assigned him, and even if Magwair and Trynair go along with him[!], it'll still be almost impossible since all the people we know of who want to reform the CoGA are still on the other side!

On the other hand, suppose the alliance etc take the temple and Zion, destroy the Go4, restore the CoGA organization to what you want [though obviously if it could be so usurped in a few centuries God didn't organise his gift very well] then leave the CoGA largely alone while they insist on and insure access to the temple for all reformists, ie internationalize it and Zion, because the thing in the basement confirms they're right and the reformists want everyone to know it.

Which is why they build at least a railroad to Zion from Siddar City if not from elsewhere, and pay for millions of poor pilgrims from the now much poorer CoGA countries to come and see for themselves.

How can the reactionary CoGA NTM national churches refuse them when a pilgrimage is required of all Safeholdians?

Again, all your many concerns are negated by the CoC and reformists pointing out they are saving the CoGA from the Go4 which it evidently cannot do itself, and even aiding all who want to see the new miracles in the temple financially when the reactionaries want to prohibit anyone from seeing the proof they're wrong.

The pilgrims seeing all the differences between the CoGA at the now internationalized temple and Zion may provide all the missionaries the reformists need back in their home countries.

This theological Akido, ie of turning the CoGA arguments back on themselves, appears to be the basis for at least some of the CoC's arguments, to anyone who'll pay attention.

Of course no one we know seems to be paying attention except Rhobair.

L

The CoGA has proclaimed jihad against the EoC and I think I remember reading that it has declared the CoC to be blasphemous. The thing that I find difficult to rationalise out is how this genie gets put back in the bottle.

The initial assault on Charis was driven by Knights of the Temple Lands, a group theoretically different from the CoGA, and the primary reason for it was to curb Charis's growing power – a purely practical matter. But once jihad was proclaimed, this was a call to mobilise the entire established Church (as compared to just the KotTL's armies) against Charis and its Church, and this action IMO put the conflict on a completely different footing. The stated reason for the war changed totally; it's not even the same type of reason.

The point I am making is that the first type of war could be brought to a logical close by changing the actual personnel of the KotTL, and even if they had lost the war, this would have left the CoGA pretty well unscathed. But one implication of the present snippet is that in the minds of the populace as a whole, the CoGA is greater than the people who run it, and it is now the Church itself that has sanctioned the war, and so will be at risk if it loses.

How does it get out of this one with its reputation even halfway intact? I suspect that because their theology actually works, the CoGA's hold on the minds of the bulk of the people is such that it cannot be allowed to fall completely, and reform of one sort or another is the only viable option. But no matter how the top management of the CoGA wriggles and purges itself, I cannot see that any member of it can survive (metaphorically speaking). The very minimum that I think would be acceptable is a root and branch reform of the CoGA, and the expulsion of any remaining members of the KotTL and their immediate subordinates.

And that's before opening the can of worms that the CoGA is based on a lie . . .

lyonheart wrote:I think Rhobair sees that the Go4 must be removed from power, and prevented from ever regaining it, even if Magwair and Trynair don't.

So how long will they remain his allies when they find out?

Will they be among the first he removes from office, if he's that 'lucky'?

Just picking up a point here that isn't rehashing -

Clyntahn and Duchairn in the Group of Four really realize it's a whole new world. Clyntahn is re-fighting the War of the Fallen, casting himself as Langhorne, soaking Safehold in blood to appease his God. Duchairn is... in a real mess, supporting a war to re-unite a Church that he isn't willing to abandon as a universal one and probably understands would be nothing better than Clyntahn's blood-soaked abomination if it ever won.

Trynair is still pursuing the classic political game, only with moves going on that are outside the norm. The power of the Church and his position need to be maintained, because that's just what he does.

Magwair certainly has an inkling that things have really changed, because his Temple Guards, a police force, have blossomed into some of the most powerful and advanced militaries on the face of a far more militarized Safehold. But he's not thinking beyond fighting a war and doing right by his troops. He may be shaping up as a fine chief of staff or general, but he's not becoming a statesman. I do think he knows that, and understands that there's an important internal and external political dimension. Previously he's been content to be effectively Clyntahn's subordinate that way - fear certainly helped there, and so did the chance for him to shine given Clyntahn's belligerence. Nowadays though, he's working more with Duchairn and his own swollen power base leaves him less afraid of Clyntahn and more disgusted by what Clyntahn's atrocities mean for his troops and operations.

So I think, when it comes around to a point of surrendering, and if these four (or three, excluding Clyntahn) are still in power around then, Magwair will defer to Duchairn on decisions that can preserve Magwair's remaining troops and his own life or legacy at least. Trynair, when the military and political calculus reaches a point in his estimation where capitulation offers better odds for his own power or survival than continued resistance, will do so as well.

For that matter, both of them may well be more reasonable than Duchairn in some ways: Duchairn has his own dream of a universal, re-united Church on Safehold still as a cherished value. Before surrendering, he has to either give that up or re-interpret it somehow so surrender can serve it.

It's not so much that Magwair or Trynair are more committed to the jihad or the Church than Duchairn - it's that they think in different terms.

Lyonheart,

Tried posting a response to yours twice and the net ate 'em both. Hopefully a separate post survives.

I believe that CoGA theology believes in salvation through works as well as societal salvation. RFC describes the CoGA as closer to Islam that it is to Christianity. He has also mentioned a focus on works over a personal relationship with God. These are two of the key differences between the two. Also, God's Plan is mentioned repeatedly in text. Many seem to believe this simply means God has shaped our lives with choices that if taken would make our lives better. I believe it means something else. That God wants Safehold either as individuals or as a whole to accomplish certain things to earn salvation. That suggests to me that Safehold's salvation might require the participation of the CoGA. Either the CoGA is required to perform rituals for for individuals or perform tasks for Safehold as a whole to enable salvation.

The CoC was the product of generations to St. Zherneau. It has succeeded in persuading generations of Charisian clergy that their relationship with God is primary over their relationship with the CoGA hierarchy. Reformists are predisposed to focus on their relationship with God over their relationship with their hierarchy. Reformist clergy see the corruption in their superiors and focus on God. They preach the same message to their congregation.

Temple loyalists did not have that same history. Those priests were corrupt or do believe in the necessity of the CoGA in God's Plan. Anyone who believes that will have issues taking guidance from an heretical church. For those people destroying the continuity of the church built by the archangels will place their salvation and the salvation of their loved ones in jeopardy.

So the defeat of the CoGA and forced reforms by the CoC would make the loyalist clergy and parishioner alike fear for their salvation. If Duchairn can salvage the CoGA's independence, he can try to manage the necessary reform and reconcile as much as he can with the CoC and reformists. That's the crux isn't it? Can Duchairn take Clyntahn out?

I can of course be totally wrong about my assumptions. Based on RFC's posts and text, I don't believe I am. If the CoGA preaches salvation through works and that it, the CoGA, is necessary to secure Safehold's salvation, persuading loyalists otherwise would be very difficult to do within 2 generations.

On the flip side Cayleb et al were ready to take out the CoGA before Father Paityr reveal his Key and the news about the Return. They would have had to defeat the CoGA armies and then outlast the lingering belief structure. Out last and slowly shift attitudes much as St. Zherneau did for Charis. This is a task for generations.

Once they knew about the Key and Return, they realized there might be other triggers to bring about an early Return or activate the OBS. No one knows what the Key does. Father Paityr only knows that it can only be used once and only if the Temple is in grave peril. Activating the Key entails risk. Since there is time to learn more about all of those systems before the Return and they now have Nynian's sisters to spy for them, waiting to trigger the Key while researching what it might actually do in the Temple becomes the safest course. This will be true even if the Allies take Zion within the year.

Since Cayleb et al cannot take the chance of getting Paityr in that room right away, defeating the CoGA militarily becomes less a priority. It would be better to defeat the CoGA and take Zion, but would that enable automatic counter measures the Allies aren't yet able to deal with? Barring more certainty than the Allies currently posses, using the Key is like playing Russian roulette with an undetermined number of rounds in the revolver.

The safe bet would be to agree to a cease fire request from Duchairn (assuming he lives after taking Clyntahn out), negotiate access to the Temple, negotiate terms that will leave the Inquisition compliant with the Writ's demands but in every other way defanged and have trials for War crimes. Because of the jihad, there might be no crimes against allied soldiers. However, the concentration camps were constructed not for enemy combatants but for the population. I sincerely doubt that the Inquisition has sufficient proof of crimes/heresies of all the camps' inhabitants.

If the Allies get significant changes that leaves the Inquisition defanged, the rest of the CoGA reformed to whatever extent is allowable by the Writ and access to Zion, they can begin researching the information necessary to use the Key. I really don't know what that looks like as I don't know what the Writ requires of the CoGA. If the Allies demand changes beyond what the Writ allows, that's proof that they serve the Dark. Walking that line of reforming the CoGA as much as possible and yet not appearing as if the CoC wishes to undermine God's Will will be a difficult things to manage.

I may be wrong in this, but I don't believe I am. We shall see in a few short months.

PeterZ wrote:Lyonheart,

Tried posting a response to yours and the net ate 'em both. Hopefully a separate post survives.

I believe that CoGA theology believes in salvation through works as well as societal salvation. RFC describes the CoGA as closer to Islam that it is to Christianity. He has also mentioned a focus on works over a personal relationship with God. These are two of the key differences between the two. Also, God's Plan is mentioned repeatedly in text. Many seem to believe this simply means God has shaped our lives with choices that if taken would make our lives better. I believe it means something else. That God wants Safehold either as individuals or as a whole to accomplish certain things to earn salvation.

That suggests to me that Safehold's salvation might require the participation of the CoGA. Either the CoGA is required to perform rituals for for individuals or for Safehold as a whole to enable salvation. The CoC was the product of generations to St. Zherneau. It has succeeded in persuading generations of Charisian clergy that their relationship with God is primary over their relationship with the CoGA hierarchy. Reformists are predisposed to focus on their relationship with God over
their relationship with their hierarchy. Reformist clergy see the corruption in their superiors and focus on God. They preach the same message to their congregation.

Temple loyalists did not have that same history. Those priests were corrupt or do believe in the necessity of the CoGA to God's Plan. Anyone who believes that will have issues taking guidance from an heretical church. For those people destroying the continuity of the church built by the archangels will place their salvation in jeopardy.

So the defeat of the CoGA and forced reforms by the CoC would make the loyalist clergy and parishioner alike fear for their salvation. If Duchairn can salvage the CoGA's independence, he can try to manage the necessary reform and reconcile as much as he can with the CoC and reformists.

I can of course be totally wrong about my assumptions. Based on RFC's posts and text, I don't believe I am. If the CoGA preaches salvation through works and that it is necessary to secure Safehold's salvation, persuading loyalists otherwise would be very difficult to do within 2 generations.

Hi PeterZ,

Nice piece of analysis. There is a lot to what you say...

But I think that the mix is more complicated than just dealing with theology. We have a very destructive war to factor into the equation here. For many on Safehold, Humpty Dumpty has already fallen off the wall. The illusion of a unified world under the benevolent care of the COGA is already forever shattered.

For the COGA loyalists there are some really tough questions to answer theologically... If God was on the side of the COGA, why did Charis win? You can answer, Charis won with the help of Shan-wei. But then the question becomes, is Shan-wei stronger than God? The amswer to this becomes, well, no, but God is testing is to see if we are really faithful.

There will be many who think this through in this way, at least at first. In fact I think that RFC has said that there is another war in the offing after this one. But finally if the theology doesn't sustain people in the face of the reality people face, it will be the theology that shifts and bends until it provides people with useful ways of dealing with the reality people face in their lives.

That process is already under way.

Don

n7axw wrote:Hi PeterZ,

Nice piece of analysis. There is a lot to what you say...

But I think that the mix is more complicated than just dealing with theology. We have a very destructive war to factor into the equation here. For many on Safehold, Humpty Dumpty has already fallen off the wall. The illusion of a unified world under the benevolent care of the COGA is already forever shattered.

For the COGA loyalists there are some really tough questions to answer theologically... If God was on the side of the COGA, why did Charis win? You can answer, Charis won with the help of Shan-wei. But then the question becomes, is Shan-wei stronger than God? The amswer to this becomes, well, no, but God is testing is to see if we are really faithful.

There will be many who think this through in this way, at least at first. In fact I think that RFC has said that there is another war in the offing after this one. But finally if the theology doesn't sustain people in the face of the reality people face, it will be the theology that shifts and bends until it provides people with useful ways of dealing with the reality people face in their lives.

That process is already under way.

Don

There is a third reason for Charis' apparent victory. If Clyntahn survives and continues to presecute the jihad, God wants to punish everyone on Safehold for not dealing with Clyntahn before he triggered his bloody reign of terror. If Clyntahn is taken out and Duchairn does not try to mend fences, God is punishing Safehold and the CoGAfor not recognizing their error. In many ways Charis would be better off if Duchairn takes out Clyntahn and continues the jihad. If Duchairn takes out Clyntahn and he sues for peace, he signals that he does recognize the CoGA's error and does desire to make amends.

As for future wars, that one is the result of the Great Reveal. In that war the veracity of the Writ will be in question. That war will be bloody indeed.

Hi, Lyonheart

A couple (more ) points against the CoGA that will have a lasting effect, and may all but destroy it.

First, specific to Siddermark, the effects of the sword of Schuler, the starvation, the destruction of people's homes and lives, will last for decades or centuries. Most of the people of Siddermark will view the CoGA with active hatred. Remember why some left to fight in Glacierheart: otherwise, they would have attacked TLs doing nothing. I think that after the end of the war, they will be hard pressed to avoid pogroms, and may well force all TLs out of the country. I'm not talking about the CoC pushing this, in fact they'd be against it. But the vast majority of Siddermarkians will hate the CoGA with a fiery passion and will be loath to even accept its presence.

Second, consider all those who were not Inquisitors who witnessed or helped inflict the Punishment of Schuler. What happens when they discover their victims weren't heretics, but merely those forced to confess by the Inquistion. For many, the guilt will be enough to shatter lives and destroy faith in the church. Think of PTSD, and of doing what the church said to do, only to find out that the CoGA's Inquistion was evil from the top down, and the rest of the church acquiesced. For some, it will force them to feel the church was right, because they won't be able to accept that what they did was so wrong. That conflict will cause them to not accept any agreement with the CoC, and that will lead to more acts of terrorism against the CoC.

Think about the troops returning home, and the stories they'll have. Think about parish priests trying to explain what happened to the returning troops, and why the Church didn't stop it.

I think that for many members of the CoGA, there will be skepticism and distrust. I think that in the short to medium term, things will get worse for it - or fanaticism against any peace agreements will locally cause more conflict.

If Merlin can enhance the distrust in the CoGA, then the time for revealing the lies about the founding of Safehold may be closer to fruition than we might now think.

-- Bob G

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi PeterZ,

Nice piece of analysis. There is a lot to what you say...

But I think that the mix is more complicated than just dealing with theology. We have a very destructive war to factor into the equation here. For many on Safehold, Humpty Dumpty has already fallen off the wall. The illusion of a unified world under the benevolent care of the COGA is already forever shattered.

For the COGA loyalists there are some really tough questions to answer theologically... If God was on the side of the COGA, why did Charis win? You can answer, Charis won with the help of Shan-wei. But then the question becomes, is Shan-wei stronger than God? The amswer to this becomes, well, no, but God is testing is to see if we are really faithful.

There will be many who think this through in this way, at least at first. In fact I think that RFC has said that there is another war in the offing after this one. But finally if the theology doesn't sustain people in the face of the reality people face, it will be the theology that shifts and bends until it provides people with useful ways of dealing with the reality people face in their lives.

That process is already under way.

Don

There is a third reason for Charis' apparent victory. If Clyntahn survives and continues to presecute the jihad, God wants to punish everyone on Safehold for not dealing with Clyntahn before he triggered his bloody reign of terror. If Clyntahn is taken out and Duchairn does not try to mend fences, God is punishing Safehold and the CoGAfor not recognizing their error. In many ways Charis would be better off if Duchairn takes out Clyntahn and continues the jihad. If Duchairn takes out Clyntahn and he sues for peace, he signals that he does recognize the CoGA's error and does desire to make amends.

As for future wars, that one is the result of the Great Reveal. In that war the veracity of the Writ will be in question. That war will be bloody indeed.

We have our differences on how the way the war should end, Peter. But one way or the other, the Jihad which was intended to destroy Charis and crush Siddarmark has failed and the Temple is facing utter ruin. Reality intrudes on theology which has assumed that God was on the Temple's side and the dream of a united Safehold under the Temple is gone.

Don

n7axw wrote:
We have our differences on how the way the war should end, Peter. But one way or the other, the Jihad which was intended to destroy Charis and crush Siddarmark has failed and the Temple is facing utter ruin. Reality intrudes on theology which has assumed that God was on the Temple's side and the dream of a united Safehold under the Temple is gone.

Don

We actually don't disagree on how the war should end. We disagree on how the war is likely to end. Even if my analysis of CoGA theology is accurate, Clyntahn can survive and move the plot in your preferred direction.