The Inquisition Reformed. (SPOILER/SPECULATION)

Dilandu wrote:

I don't think that a lie ever truly lubricates the truth, Dilandu. There might be times when the lie can postpone the truth's telling, but there are limits to even that.

Ok, may i use a model? Let's suppose that the USA goverment during the Vietnam War suddenly told to the peoples: "You knew, this is all for nothing and always were. We started this war because we didn't want to follow Jeneva convention of 1954, and we placed our puppet goverment in South Vietnam just because some idiots in CIA assumed that it would be bad for us to let Vietnam be red. So, against the will of Vietnamese peoples we violated the international agreement, forced them to deal with unpopular southern govermen, killed, maimed and wounded an awfull lot of peoples - for nothing, my dear americans, for nothing - and actually we made things only worse for Vietnam. Oh, and all americans that were killed and injured during the wars suffered for nothing, also, because we are losing and the Vietnam eventually became red, and we cannot do anything to stop ot either - so, actually, this war was useless. Good day."

What would be the reaction of american peoples in, let's assume, 1969, if they were told the complete truth?

Well, actually those very things were being said in 1969 and while for a large percentage of the public they didn't go over very well, we did survive the experience, although with some turbulance. At the risk of igniting a political discussion that I'm NOT participating in, it can be questioned that we learned a thing from the experience.

I would stand by the statement that most of the time, it's the truth that is untold that comes back to bite you in the arse. Fresh air and sunshine are usually best.

Don

n7axw wrote:I would stand by the statement that most of the time, it's the truth that is untold that comes back to bite you in the arse. Fresh air and sunshine are usually best.

Excepting the very specific case of lying about the source of the truth so that people don't judge the truth in terms of where it came from, I can't really think of any cases where lying enhances the truth ... OTOH, the truth can be a great lubricant for a lie! (Or to put it another way, the best lies are mostly true.)

Unwinding the CoGA will/would be a work of generations, and I can't help thinking that replacing it with a "better lie" would be a whole lot simpler & faster. e.g. something along the lines of "Langhorne was imprisoned and later murdered by Schuler and Chihiro who then framed Shan-Wei and Pei for it". Explain the war against the fallen as the fall-out from that, complete with "history is written by the victors" (I'm pretty sure Safehold will have a version of that saying already.) as to who the real bad guys where. Then you just need a religiously acceptable way of explaining the Gbada that won't be inconsistent with anything eventually learnt about them, and to hope that no significant traces of the Terran Federation are ever found!

Don't think RFC is going to go this way, but if you can stomach the lying it would probably keep the generational strife and killing to a minimum ...

PalmerSperry wrote:

n7axw wrote:I would stand by the statement that most of the time, it's the truth that is untold that comes back to bite you in the arse. Fresh air and sunshine are usually best.

Excepting the very specific case of lying about the source of the truth so that people don't judge the truth in terms of where it came from, I can't really think of any cases where lying enhances the truth ... OTOH, the truth can be a great lubricant for a lie! (Or to put it another way, the best lies are mostly true.)

Unwinding the CoGA will/would be a work of generations, and I can't help thinking that replacing it with a "better lie" would be a whole lot simpler & faster. e.g. something along the lines of "Langhorne was imprisoned and later murdered by Schuler and Chihiro who then framed Shan-Wei and Pei for it". Explain the war against the fallen as the fall-out from that, complete with "history is written by the victors" (I'm pretty sure Safehold will have a version of that saying already.) as to who the real bad guys where. Then you just need a religiously acceptable way of explaining the Gbada that won't be inconsistent with anything eventually learnt about them, and to hope that no significant traces of the Terran Federation are ever found!

Don't think RFC is going to go this way, but if you can stomach the lying it would probably keep the generational strife and killing to a minimum ...

About the only people I can think of that this MIGHT work for are the sisters. For the rest of Safehold, I would suspect that angels and archangels, that is, Langhorne, Chihiro, Schuler, etc. are probably on the same plane and it wouldn't be creditable to try to play them off against each other.

Don

Hi Paler Sperry,

Kudos for some excellent points!

RFC had Cayleb tell Sharleyan that first night that lies eventually destroy what they're trying to protect [there being too many lions in Zion], and that truism can be seen again and again.

It might be entertaining at least to come up with some possible and impossible lies to lubricate what we know so far, when things get slow.

We've argued about CoGA reforms before, now with the SSK added to the mix, the alliance has or soon will know details of how power in the temple shifted over the centuries, whether it was the result of a 'great man' or several that concentrated power; the fact that the corruption continued unabated leads me to think it wasn't any kind of reform movement.

If the reformists don't dominate the post war CoGA, having the CoC acting as at least a second opinion to any changes in whatever CoGA(s) survives as the majority church beyond the current war may help keep them more balanced than being swept away by some 'new reformist' or 'restorationist' movements [ie old reactionaries bent on restoring everything back to 'normal' especially the inquisition].

Indeed hunting down the underground inquisition is going to be a very long term project, though with the temple accessible after the war, and hopefully much if not most of the inquisition records, much of it will only tedious searching.

Perhaps we should concentrate here on the specifics the alliance will require the CoGA besides effectively castrating the inquisition.

Whatever is left should be almost entirely focused on the priesthood, making sure it and the remainder of the vicarate are true good men.

How can the sick heal the sick?

How can the priesthood lead their flocks in righteousness if they aren't?

L

PalmerSperry wrote:

n7axw wrote:I would stand by the statement that most of the time, it's the truth that is untold that comes back to bite you in the arse. Fresh air and sunshine are usually best.

Excepting the very specific case of lying about the source of the truth so that people don't judge the truth in terms of where it came from, I can't really think of any cases where lying enhances the truth ... OTOH, the truth can be a great lubricant for a lie! (Or to put it another way, the best lies are mostly true.)

Unwinding the CoGA will/would be a work of generations, and I can't help thinking that replacing it with a "better lie" would be a whole lot simpler & faster. e.g. something along the lines of "Langhorne was imprisoned and later murdered by Schuler and Chihiro who then framed Shan-Wei and Pei for it". Explain the war against the fallen as the fall-out from that, complete with "history is written by the victors" (I'm pretty sure Safehold will have a version of that saying already.) as to who the real bad guys where. Then you just need a religiously acceptable way of explaining the Gbada that won't be inconsistent with anything eventually learnt about them, and to hope that no significant traces of the Terran Federation are ever found!

Don't think RFC is going to go this way, but if you can stomach the lying it would probably keep the generational strife and killing to a minimum ...

Dilandu wrote:

I don't think that a lie ever truly lubricates the truth, Dilandu. There might be times when the lie can postpone the truth's telling, but there are limits to even that.

Ok, may i use a model? Let's suppose that the USA goverment during the Vietnam War suddenly told to the peoples: "You knew, this is all for nothing and always were. We started this war because we didn't want to follow Jeneva convention of 1954, and we placed our puppet goverment in South Vietnam just because some idiots in CIA assumed that it would be bad for us to let Vietnam be red. So, against the will of Vietnamese peoples we violated the international agreement, forced them to deal with unpopular southern govermen, killed, maimed and wounded an awfull lot of peoples - for nothing, my dear americans, for nothing - and actually we made things only worse for Vietnam. Oh, and all americans that were killed and injured during the wars suffered for nothing, also, because we are losing and the Vietnam eventually became red, and we cannot do anything to stop ot either - so, actually, this war was useless. Good day."

What would be the reaction of american peoples in, let's assume, 1969, if they were told the complete truth?

While this is a popular oversimplification of the events in Vietnam, it is hardly accurate. The history does not start in 1954, and most importantly, it skips the critical elections that were to be held on both sides of the demarkation line (and were held on the south, but not the north), and the terrorist activity in the south sponsored by the north against the popularly elected government.

This war was never as simple as portrayed by either the left or right in the US.

Dilandu wrote:

Charis and the EOC are well past the stage for that sort of thing and the rest of Safehold will have their example.

They would face internal crysis themselves. A majority of Charisians, loyal to the crown and Church of Charis would be shocked by the sudden revelation; a lot of them would think "Oh no! Our king and archibishop are TRUE heretics, and Shan-Wei servants! Clyntahn was right after all!!!" Charis MAY survive that, but only by the repressions against a awful large percent of its own population.

That's the main reason why i so worried about the revelation. Currently, even the Charisian society are completely unprepaired for that. Frankly, the preliminary work would probably take a lot of years - probably even a few centuries - before actual revelation. Especially considering the ongoing policy "we would not replace one lie with another lie"; i'm afraid eventually this politics would went to the "we were forced to send millions of charisians to the concenctration camps, because something gone wrong with our truth, and they can not comprehend with it".

Actually, the best solution would be the returned Archangels, persuaded by Merlin and Co to change the doctrine. It would probably, actually prolong the revelation, but at least there would be a lot less blood here.

I have been away from this thread for a while but want to take exception to the characterization of the Charisians, a very few would ever believe Clyntahn was right to attempt genocide against Charis. That Society has been primed for the Revelations of St. Zherneau.
First in snippet 22 RFC has started the process of 'humanizing' the technology. his shuttle was described as a device - not touched by the angelic fire, just a device. This theme will be spread as a meme . . . . let it percolate to the masses.

Once the Church is defeated, it will not go away - the Archbishop of Charis has the philosophy and the strength of character to propel the CoCA into a true church stripped of it's Secular power.

Paityr Wylsynn is, IMHO, the ideal Grand Inquisitor who would be charged with reforming/dissolving the Inquisition! The Schueler hologram, demonstration and use of the Verifier would find a core group to continue as Church administators and priests. Faith and God will find a way!

No matter how the Truth comes out it will be a shock and many will not believe. a generation or two will have those that believe 'it's evil' as a response to technology. As has been said, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indisquishable from magic"

lyonheart wrote:Hi Paler Sperry,

Kudos for some excellent points!

RFC had Cayleb tell Sharleyan that first night that lies eventually destroy what they're trying to protect [there being too many lions in Zion], and that truism can be seen again and again.

It might be entertaining at least to come up with some possible and impossible lies to lubricate what we know so far, when things get slow.

I imagine statements that are technically true but invite an acceptable misinterpretation instead of the terrifying genuine background will continue to have a big role. "Seijin Merlin has visions", for example, gets understood as "Seijin Merlin has a mystical form of clairvoyance" and accepted instead of "the PICA known as Merlin has SNARC feeds, processed through the tactical computer OWL, delivering full EM-spectrum and audio data from about 120 sources at any given time." (Getting people used to acronyms may be important too....)

Maybe Archangelic tricks can be described as the use of "devices" as an interim stage. People can hear "devices" as "holy relics" until they are ready to swallow "flashy technology common to the Terran Federation, knowledge of which was lost to Adams and Eves so it could really impress them."

We've argued about CoGA reforms before, now with the SSK added to the mix, the alliance has or soon will know details of how power in the temple shifted over the centuries, whether it was the result of a 'great man' or several that concentrated power; the fact that the corruption continued unabated leads me to think it wasn't any kind of reform movement.

If the reformists don't dominate the post war CoGA, having the CoC acting as at least a second opinion to any changes in whatever CoGA(s) survives as the majority church beyond the current war may help keep them more balanced than being swept away by some 'new reformist' or 'restorationist' movements [ie old reactionaries bent on restoring everything back to 'normal' especially the inquisition].

Indeed hunting down the underground inquisition is going to be a very long term project, though with the temple accessible after the war, and hopefully much if not most of the inquisition records, much of it will only tedious searching.

Perhaps we should concentrate here on the specifics the alliance will require the CoGA besides effectively castrating the inquisition.

Whatever is left should be almost entirely focused on the priesthood, making sure it and the remainder of the vicarate are true good men.

How can the sick heal the sick?

How can the priesthood lead their flocks in righteousness if they aren't?

L

The Inquisition, or something replacing it, is still going to be needed as an investigative and police force for church abuses. I'd love to devolve that function to secular authorities as another public service as soon as practical, but it's not likely to be practical soon. In the meantime, Nynian and the SSK have a lot of evidence of specific abuses by higher-ups. The Inquisition itself does too, as blackmail materials. Tribunals led by Wylsynn and priests like him - Staiphan Maik may well have a role there too - can go over that and for at least those upper echelons sort them out into groups:
(1) out of authority and oh so punished you scum
(2) out of authority and allowed to retire to various cloistered orders
(3) kept in place and watched
and (4) fit for promotion, you precious icon of decency in a pit of iniquity

Lower down in the hierarchy - or in less powerful orders - there will be plenty of priests who didn't come under scrutiny by the Inquisition or the SSK. The default assumption for priests who aren't on a vicarate career track and who have not had issues come up with their conduct is that they really are honest men and women who have been doing about the best they can as they understand it. They should be allowed to carry on, to form the backbone of a reformed church, and stand for promotion higher up in the Church.

Getting good management and good conduct, not to mention reality-based theology, is going to take a lot of work and risk, but if you clear out the known scum and let the (presumably) genuinely service-minded mass of the priesthood select their future leadership with that qualification in mind, you're off to a pretty good start.

JeffEngel wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Paler Sperry,

Kudos for some excellent points!

RFC had Cayleb tell Sharleyan that first night that lies eventually destroy what they're trying to protect [there being too many lions in Zion], and that truism can be seen again and again.

It might be entertaining at least to come up with some possible and impossible lies to lubricate what we know so far, when things get slow.

I imagine statements that are technically true but invite an acceptable misinterpretation instead of the terrifying genuine background will continue to have a big role. "Seijin Merlin has visions", for example, gets understood as "Seijin Merlin has a mystical form of clairvoyance" and accepted instead of "the PICA known as Merlin has SNARC feeds, processed through the tactical computer OWL, delivering full EM-spectrum and audio data from about 120 sources at any given time." (Getting people used to acronyms may be important too....)

Maybe Archangelic tricks can be described as the use of "devices" as an interim stage. People can hear "devices" as "holy relics" until they are ready to swallow "flashy technology common to the Terran Federation, knowledge of which was lost to Adams and Eves so it could really impress them."

We've argued about CoGA reforms before, now with the SSK added to the mix, the alliance has or soon will know details of how power in the temple shifted over the centuries, whether it was the result of a 'great man' or several that concentrated power; the fact that the corruption continued unabated leads me to think it wasn't any kind of reform movement.

If the reformists don't dominate the post war CoGA, having the CoC acting as at least a second opinion to any changes in whatever CoGA(s) survives as the majority church beyond the current war may help keep them more balanced than being swept away by some 'new reformist' or 'restorationist' movements [ie old reactionaries bent on restoring everything back to 'normal' especially the inquisition].

Indeed hunting down the underground inquisition is going to be a very long term project, though with the temple accessible after the war, and hopefully much if not most of the inquisition records, much of it will only tedious searching.

Perhaps we should concentrate here on the specifics the alliance will require the CoGA besides effectively castrating the inquisition.

Whatever is left should be almost entirely focused on the priesthood, making sure it and the remainder of the vicarate are true good men.

How can the sick heal the sick?

How can the priesthood lead their flocks in righteousness if they aren't?

L

The Inquisition, or something replacing it, is still going to be needed as an investigative and police force for church abuses. I'd love to devolve that function to secular authorities as another public service as soon as practical, but it's not likely to be practical soon. In the meantime, Nynian and the SSK have a lot of evidence of specific abuses by higher-ups. The Inquisition itself does too, as blackmail materials. Tribunals led by Wylsynn and priests like him - Staiphan Maik may well have a role there too - can go over that and for at least those upper echelons sort them out into groups:
(1) out of authority and oh so punished you scum
(2) out of authority and allowed to retire to various cloistered orders
(3) kept in place and watched
and (4) fit for promotion, you precious icon of decency in a pit of iniquity

Lower down in the hierarchy - or in less powerful orders - there will be plenty of priests who didn't come under scrutiny by the Inquisition or the SSK. The default assumption for priests who aren't on a vicarate career track and who have not had issues come up with their conduct is that they really are honest men and women who have been doing about the best they can as they understand it. They should be allowed to carry on, to form the backbone of a reformed church, and stand for promotion higher up in the Church.

Getting good management and good conduct, not to mention reality-based theology, is going to take a lot of work and risk, but if you clear out the known scum and let the (presumably) genuinely service-minded mass of the priesthood select their future leadership with that qualification in mind, you're off to a pretty good start.

excellent post!

Hi Jeff Engel,

Thanks for the good ideas.

What happens to the CoGA [does Merlin get his wish and fulfill his oath?] will be fascinating to read.

My somewhat tongue-in-cheek suggestion of finding a range of acceptable lies is considerably reduced by what we know the inner circle especially Maikel will accept.

However, if the cease fire that ends this war, an actual peace treaty being an impossibility since the CoGA right wing nations would strenuously object and revolt, can last long enough to only carry out joint tribunals it might accomplish some justice at the temple and vicarate level at least after all, but don't hold out too much hope.

Having a Dolaran like Staiphan Maik direct them would emphasize Dohlar's increasing importance at a critical time, besides his probable honest reputation among his co-workers and age group throughout the priesthood would reassure many fearing a reformist revenge even when they know its more than justified.

Whether Rhobair insists on being the first and confesses all his faults NTM the gross mistakes and crimes of the Go4, there are going to be many where the available facts are too few and murky to insist on capital punishment, so life at hard labor might be the best until more evidence is found, according to your four criminal classes.

L

JeffEngel wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Paler Sperry,

Kudos for some excellent points!

RFC had Cayleb tell Sharleyan that first night that lies eventually destroy what they're trying to protect [there being too many lions in Zion], and that truism can be seen again and again.

It might be entertaining at least to come up with some possible and impossible lies to lubricate what we know so far, when things get slow.

I imagine statements that are technically true but invite an acceptable misinterpretation instead of the terrifying genuine background will continue to have a big role. "Seijin Merlin has visions", for example, gets understood as "Seijin Merlin has a mystical form of clairvoyance" and accepted instead of "the PICA known as Merlin has SNARC feeds, processed through the tactical computer OWL, delivering full EM-spectrum and audio data from about 120 sources at any given time." (Getting people used to acronyms may be important too....)

Maybe Archangelic tricks can be described as the use of "devices" as an interim stage. People can hear "devices" as "holy relics" until they are ready to swallow "flashy technology common to the Terran Federation, knowledge of which was lost to Adams and Eves so it could really impress them."

We've argued about CoGA reforms before, now with the SSK added to the mix, the alliance has or soon will know details of how power in the temple shifted over the centuries, whether it was the result of a 'great man' or several that concentrated power; the fact that the corruption continued unabated leads me to think it wasn't any kind of reform movement.

If the reformists don't dominate the post war CoGA, having the CoC acting as at least a second opinion to any changes in whatever CoGA(s) survives as the majority church beyond the current war may help keep them more balanced than being swept away by some 'new reformist' or 'restorationist' movements [ie old reactionaries bent on restoring everything back to 'normal' especially the inquisition].

Indeed hunting down the underground inquisition is going to be a very long term project, though with the temple accessible after the war, and hopefully much if not most of the inquisition records, much of it will only tedious searching.

Perhaps we should concentrate here on the specifics the alliance will require the CoGA besides effectively castrating the inquisition.

Whatever is left should be almost entirely focused on the priesthood, making sure it and the remainder of the vicarate are true good men.

How can the sick heal the sick?

How can the priesthood lead their flocks in righteousness if they aren't?

L

The Inquisition, or something replacing it, is still going to be needed as an investigative and police force for church abuses. I'd love to devolve that function to secular authorities as another public service as soon as practical, but it's not likely to be practical soon. In the meantime, Nynian and the SSK have a lot of evidence of specific abuses by higher-ups. The Inquisition itself does too, as blackmail materials. Tribunals led by Wylsynn and priests like him - Staiphan Maik may well have a role there too - can go over that and for at least those upper echelons sort them out into groups:
(1) out of authority and oh so punished you scum
(2) out of authority and allowed to retire to various cloistered orders
(3) kept in place and watched
and (4) fit for promotion, you precious icon of decency in a pit of iniquity

Lower down in the hierarchy - or in less powerful orders - there will be plenty of priests who didn't come under scrutiny by the Inquisition or the SSK. The default assumption for priests who aren't on a vicarate career track and who have not had issues come up with their conduct is that they really are honest men and women who have been doing about the best they can as they understand it. They should be allowed to carry on, to form the backbone of a reformed church, and stand for promotion higher up in the Church.

Getting good management and good conduct, not to mention reality-based theology, is going to take a lot of work and risk, but if you clear out the known scum and let the (presumably) genuinely service-minded mass of the priesthood select their future leadership with that qualification in mind, you're off to a pretty good start.

[quote="lyonheart"]Hi Jeff Engel,

Thanks for the good ideas.

What happens to the CoGA [does Merlin get his wish and fulfill his oath?] will be fascinating to read.

My somewhat tongue-in-cheek suggestion of finding a range of acceptable lies is considerably reduced by what we know the inner circle especially Maikel will accept.

However, if the cease fire that ends this war, an actual peace treaty being an impossibility since the CoGA right wing nations would strenuously object and revolt, can last long enough to only carry out joint tribunals it might accomplish some justice at the temple and vicarate level at least after all, but don't hold out too much hope.

Having a Dolaran like Staiphan Maik direct them would emphasize Dohlar's increasing importance at a critical time, besides his probable honest reputation among his co-workers and age group throughout the priesthood would reassure many fearing a reformist revenge even when they know its more than justified.

Whether Rhobair insists on being the first and confesses all his faults NTM the gross mistakes and crimes of the Go4, there are going to be many where the available facts are too few and murky to insist on capital punishment, so life at hard labor might be the best until more evidence is found, according to your four criminal classes.

L



[quote]

SNIP

I expect the collapse of the CoGA to come in totality. Financially bankrupt, Spiritually bankrupt and militarily decimated. Capitulation may be in the form of an admitting a failure of faith (via the Go4) and the need for reformation, rather than an unconditional surrender. But collape it will!

To be acceptable to the EoC and to the COC the Grand Vicar will need to be replaced, the Inquisition put on the path to having their teeth pulled (Clyntahn's head will already be removed) and possibly dissolved and finally the Secular Power must be excised from the Church.

The Archbishop of Glacierheart, Paityr Wylsynn and The Archbishop of Charis will be the main elements to pull the reformation together.

Archbishop Mailk would have to be brought into the Mix but how much Dohlarian input would be welcome is a great question - he appears to be a good man but the whole Dohlar situation is going to be an ugly mess.