New devices of war (howitzers to razor wire and all between)

MWadwell wrote:

n7axw wrote:Actually, while Charis is still struggling to get its steel capacity up so that they have enough to manufacture rifles, cannon and iron clads, I doubt that such things as razor wire will be a very strong priority. They are increasing their industrial base, but as of the end of LAMA, things were still bottlenecked.

That being ssid, I think you have s good idea.

Don

I think that the biggest bottleneck is not the smelting of steel, or the construction of weapons.

The biggest restriction is manpower.

And so (to me) the best "New Device of War", is actually something that will increase manufacturing.


Smaller, more reliable steam engines. Engines able to be mounted in (initially) middle-sized factories (and finally, in small factories) - enabling the use of powered tools.

That would have the effect of releasing a relatively large manpower pool - that can then be used to either further expand the manufacturing sector, or go into the army/navy.


That is going to be the best "weapon" to develop....

I would add what I think you will find a friendly amendment to your comment here...

It is trained manpower. Between Charis and Siddarmark they actually can recruit more soldiers than they can arm.

But you can't produce a qualified machinist in a day no matter how hard you try. Qualifing people to make Charis' increasingly sophisicated industrial plant go is the true bottleneck.

Don

MWadwell wrote:1) The WWI, crew served vickers/maxim MG's were actually more mobile then you'd think, with them being able to be fired from the hip.

Actually, no. I realize that heavy machine guns can be fired from the hip and many medals for valor were won -- usually posthumously -- by soldiers who used them in that fashion. But as the video I linked above says, "...no more than 500 yards from your transportation..." -- OWTTE. Man-portable, single operator is NOT the approved method of use for any belt-fed machine gun. (With the possible exception of a modern 5.56 NATO caliber SAW which I think is capable of accepting a disintegrating belt as well as a 20,30, or larger magazine feed.)

MWadwell wrote:2) With the Church catching up with the weapon technology, it's going to come down to speed of movement, rather then sheer firepower. So I would think that the ICA is going to push for better (i.e. faster and more reliable) communications that can work in all types of weather.

Better communications are definitely on the agenda, but once the bullets start flying relative fire-power and mobility are going to be huge factors in the outcome.

MWadwell wrote:3) With the increasing lethality of the weapons, defenses (i.e. trenches) are going to gain in importance - so the key point is going to be to attack strategically, and defend tactically. I.e. using speed to take a position (see Point 2 above) and quickly fortify it, and then force the Church to attack the entrenched ICA.

Baron Green Valley doesn't agree with you. He has a near perfect defensive position in the Sylmahn Gap, yet he has taken a large portion of his troops to make a difficult winter-time flanking movement to attack the AoG in its winter quarters.

BGV is typical of the ICA's commanders in that he looks for ways to take the fight to the AoG rather than fort up and wait for the AoG to take the initiative. That isn't to say that the ICA never forts up or entrenches but that, given a choice, they prefer assault to defense; When they start issuing automatic weapons, I would expect them to go for the more mobile modern model than the WWI, or even WWII, tactical models.

Weird Harold wrote:

MWadwell wrote:3) With the increasing lethality of the weapons, defenses (i.e. trenches) are going to gain in importance - so the key point is going to be to attack strategically, and defend tactically. I.e. using speed to take a position (see Point 2 above) and quickly fortify it, and then force the Church to attack the entrenched ICA.

Baron Green Valley doesn't agree with you. He has a near perfect defensive position in the Sylmahn Gap, yet he has taken a large portion of his troops to make a difficult winter-time flanking movement to attack the AoG in its winter quarters.

BGV is typical of the ICA's commanders in that he looks for ways to take the fight to the AoG rather than fort up and wait for the AoG to take the initiative. That isn't to say that the ICA never forts up or entrenches but that, given a choice, they prefer assault to defense; When they start issuing automatic weapons, I would expect them to go for the more mobile modern model than the WWI, or even WWII, tactical models.

This isn't successful disagreement. MWadwell is talking about tactics; you're talking about operations.

BGV has a great defensive position. It frees up troops, because he can hold it - and fix the enemy in place - with a small portion of his force. The remainder can go out, move, and cause trouble. When it does make contact with the enemy, chances are it will (when practical) do precisely as MWadwell suggests and get into a good defensive position that the enemy will be compelled to attack - or at least one that will again fix a disproportionate number of the enemy and allow the leftover force to repeat the same maneuver on a smaller scale. If they can't force a combat where their own preparations act as a force multiplier, there remain the possibilities of attacking lines of supply and communication, or forcing the enemy to retreat under punishing fire. And if you can somehow surround an enemy with inferior numbers and manage to kill them off, great, but that's very rarely something to count on, not without a huge qualitative advantage in position and firepower on all sides.

He certainly isn't forting up and doing nothing else, but that's not what is being suggested here in the first place.

Hi Captain Joe Henry,

Welcome to the forums, if you haven't already, please enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

RFC came down on posters thinking the war was going to devolve into a WWI trench warfare scenario, when we're looking at real continental warfare, Haven being over 2000 miles north to south minimum [Bay of Bess] versus the ~400 of the western front, before getting into any east-west additions; while the forces involved, even the MHoG are far fewer than WW I's many millions, too few to hold such long lines, when they can easily be marched around.

So RFC didn't think there would be that much need for barbed wire etc.

NTM a few thousand miles of the stuff would cut into production desperately needed elsewhere.

Canned rations are a bit further away until the production bottlenecks are resolved.

Will copper and iron ore suddenly appear once its known the EoC will pay handsomely for it?

We haven't seen Katusha's [long discussed here] etc yet because they haven't been needed, ie they're being saved for the MHoG etc.

While we've had hints of smoke and other types of ammunition, again smoke hasn't been needed much when gunpowder is already an excellent battlefield obscurrant.

Real howitzers can be expected to be in action this spring or summer, when their faster rate of fire will be another unpleasant shock to the CoGA armies.

Machine guns aren't needed to win this war, though we may see Lt Zhwaigair come up with a crude revolver or Gatling/Hotchkiss type, that doesn't initially require brass cases.

Increasing the number of 3" mortars is the quickest way to increasing alliance firepower, though I'm all in favor of a comparable 120 mm big brother; at around 4.75" it could be called the 'quarter to five' mortar , firing twice as far with over 3 times the shell weight NTM the HE filing being several times as powerful so if every regiment had at least a dozen...

L

captinjoehenry wrote:So I was thinking now that Charis has a huge amount of steel production there are all sorts of weapons of war that they could make that aren't weapons. The first thing that I think they should develop should be some barbed wire which should come I very handy once the Mighty Host shows up as barbed wire is pretty effective at preventing people from getting close like in WWI.

Is there any other inevtions like barbed wire Charis should peruse because they now have access to a large amount of steel production?

Another idea I feel would have merit for them because they have effective armor plate would be something like a flak jacket from the Vietnam war. Or now that they are able to produce a large amount of steel thistle they could start issuing bullpen proof vests made of multiple layers of steel thistle as steel thistle is stronger than silk and a best made of multiple layers of silk was shown to be bullet proof.

Another idea would be that they start issueing canned rations as they appear to have the ability to produce a large number of cans because they can produce a large number of metal rounds.

Now I am not sure how useful this would be but they could start deploying smoke rounds to their artillery but I am not sure if that would help Charis or the Church more.

They could also devlope rocket artillery as they already have rockets bit once again I am not sure how much if an advantage that would be.

Now I just suspect this is more of the fact that there has been no location in the books to mention this but here it is: Charis already has breach loading naval artillery and a hydropunamic recoil system so I suspect that very very soon we will be seeing some honest to god howitzers pretty soon and that will dramatically increase Charis's ability to throw rapid fire artillery shells at long range and with much higher accuracy.

Hi Weberfan,

Welcome to the forums, enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

If we don't see rocket barrages by the time BGV etc lands at Port Home, or when he goes up the Zion river in his steam powered landing craft, I will be surprised, ie I expect we'll see some used in the invasion preparation barrage.

Given dragons that can pull 30 ton loaded cargo wagons, the mind boggles at the number of Katusha type rockets that might be loosed upon a MHoG army attempting to form for battle or bivouacked for the night, from a single 32 launcher battalion.

Given the new HE that still can't cope with rifled artillery accelerations, a 80-90 pound rocket [4500-6000 yards is plenty to begin with] with most of the rest in the tubes, frame, and limited aiming system, possibly in multiple smaller trailers; for at least 12,800 rockets, each lethal out to 50 yards minimum, so some 100,480,000 square yards are attacked, approximately 32.438 square miles assuming no overlap, assuming all could be aimed to avoid that.

Even at a target a quarter that size, only the MHoG might seem worth shooting at, although one could see a single battery inundating say Kaitswyrth's entire army, followed by the other three batteries every ~3-4 minutes while it reloads in ~10-15 minutes, perhaps an hour before it marches to the apparent battle site.

By the time the first is ready to launch again, is the AoG/MHoG army still there to shoot at?

L

WeberFan wrote:

captinjoehenry wrote:So I was thinking now that Charis has a huge amount of steel production there are all sorts of weapons of war that they could make that aren't weapons. The first thing that I think they should develop should be some barbed wire which should come I very handy once the Mighty Host shows up as barbed wire is pretty effective at preventing people from getting close like in WWI.

Is there any other inevtions like barbed wire Charis should peruse because they now have access to a large amount of steel production?

Another idea I feel would have merit for them because they have effective armor plate would be something like a flak jacket from the Vietnam war. Or now that they are able to produce a large amount of steel thistle they could start issuing bullpen proof vests made of multiple layers of steel thistle as steel thistle is stronger than silk and a best made of multiple layers of silk was shown to be bullet proof.

Another idea would be that they start issueing canned rations as they appear to have the ability to produce a large number of cans because they can produce a large number of metal rounds.

Now I am not sure how useful this would be but they could start deploying smoke rounds to their artillery but I am not sure if that would help Charis or the Church more.

They could also devlope rocket artillery as they already have rockets bit once again I am not sure how much if an advantage that would be.

Now I just suspect this is more of the fact that there has been no location in the books to mention this but here it is: Charis already has breach loading naval artillery and a hydropunamic recoil system so I suspect that very very soon we will be seeing some honest to god howitzers pretty soon and that will dramatically increase Charis's ability to throw rapid fire artillery shells at long range and with much higher accuracy.

Personally, I'm rather surprised that Charis hasn't made the leap from rockets used for signaling purposes to rockets used for area-denial purposes. All of the technological "parts" are in place, and I can think of few things that would be more devastating to a mass assault by several hundred thousand Harchongians... Wikipedia has some fascinating information about the Soviet Katyusha rocket systems from WWII. While slow to reload (at least the earlier systems), a battery of 4 launchers could fire a complete salvo in about 10 seconds that was the equivalent of a 72-gun artillery barrage. Longer-ranged than most common field guns of the time, a Katyusha-like system could be either the first barrier in a layered defense, or it could be used for assault preparation to "soften up" the defenses a bit. The launchers are essentially simple tubes. The rockets are simply larger versions of what Charis already makes. The warheads can use impact fuses similar to those already in use, and they are most easily configured as fragmentation-type warheads (like the double-shell grenades described in the textev).

lyonheart wrote:Hi Captain Joe Henry,

Welcome to the forums, if you haven't already, please enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

RFC came down on posters thinking the war was going to devolve into a WWI trench warfare scenario, when we're looking at real continental warfare, Haven being over 2000 miles north to south minimum [Bay of Bess] versus the ~400 of the western front, before getting into any east-west additions; while the forces involved, even the MHoG are far fewer than WW I's many millions, too few to hold such long lines, when they can easily be marched around.

The Eastern Front of WWI may still be a model; it didn't have the soldier per mile to become a continuous trench line. But the point would still stand.

So RFC didn't think there would be that much need for barbed wire etc.

NTM a few thousand miles of the stuff would cut into production desperately needed elsewhere.

Canned rations are a bit further away until the production bottlenecks are resolved.

Will copper and iron ore suddenly appear once its known the EoC will pay handsomely for it?

Not exactly, but supplies could well ramp up relatively quickly - steam engines will revolutionize mining, and Corisande, Chisholm, Silverlode, and Siddarmark all have a lot of ore mining potential that steam engines and railroads (or even the newer, cheaper sailing ships) will help open up for use.

That's still a next-war kind of thing though.

We haven't seen Katusha's [long discussed here] etc yet because they haven't been needed, ie they're being saved for the MHoG etc.

While we've had hints of smoke and other types of ammunition, again smoke hasn't been needed much when gunpowder is already an excellent battlefield obscurrant.

Real howitzers can be expected to be in action this spring or summer, when their faster rate of fire will be another unpleasant shock to the CoGA armies.

Machine guns aren't needed to win this war, though we may see Lt Zhwaigair come up with a crude revolver or Gatling/Hotchkiss type, that doesn't initially require brass cases.

Increasing the number of 3" mortars is the quickest way to increasing alliance firepower, though I'm all in favor of a comparable 120 mm big brother; at around 4.75" it could be called the 'quarter to five' mortar , firing twice as far with over 3 times the shell weight NTM the HE filing being several times as powerful so if every regiment had at least a dozen...

L

The 3" mortar is pushing the edges of man-carried-in-parts, so the 4.75" one is definitely going to be field artillery rather than a crew-operated infantry one. That is likely to limit how fast you can get it around and where, but when you can fire twice as far, mobility matters a bit less.

Say. Do we know of any reason why none of the artillery is moved around on the battlefield by Safehold native species, one of any of the lizards and dragons? Obviously the largest dragons will be a bit much for most weapons, but are there none in a convenient size. speed, strength and attitude range for artillery?

JeffEngel wrote:

We haven't seen Katusha's [long discussed here] etc yet because they haven't been needed, ie they're being saved for the MHoG etc.

While we've had hints of smoke and other types of ammunition, again smoke hasn't been needed much when gunpowder is already an excellent battlefield obscurrant.

Real howitzers can be expected to be in action this spring or summer, when their faster rate of fire will be another unpleasant shock to the CoGA armies.

Machine guns aren't needed to win this war, though we may see Lt Zhwaigair come up with a crude revolver or Gatling/Hotchkiss type, that doesn't initially require brass cases.

Increasing the number of 3" mortars is the quickest way to increasing alliance firepower, though I'm all in favor of a comparable 120 mm big brother; at around 4.75" it could be called the 'quarter to five' mortar , firing twice as far with over 3 times the shell weight NTM the HE filing being several times as powerful so if every regiment had at least a dozen...

L

The 3" mortar is pushing the edges of man-carried-in-parts, so the 4.75" one is definitely going to be field artillery rather than a crew-operated infantry one. That is likely to limit how fast you can get it around and where, but when you can fire twice as far, mobility matters a bit less.

Say. Do we know of any reason why none of the artillery is moved around on the battlefield by Safehold native species, one of any of the lizards and dragons? Obviously the largest dragons will be a bit much for most weapons, but are there none in a convenient size. speed, strength and attitude range for artillery?

The Imperial Japanese Army had a requirement for an infantry gun that would be perfect for the ICA. It could be fired in direct mode, howitzer mode or mortar mode as needed with elevation of -4 to +70, 10 rpm out to 3,000 yards. A complete piece weighted just under 500lbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_92_battalion_gun

Hi lmwatbullrun,

Welcome to the forums, please enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

I think you have quite a point regarding transportation and logistics being the key to victory.

While railroads are too resource hungry for this war, steam barge tugs to move canal/river barges at an average 8 mph 26.5166 hours/5day [ie 4-5 times as fast as dragons can tow them] could revolutionize the alliance's ability to respond to and outmatch the CoGA/MHoG armies.

I've pushed sending steam engines and propellers etc to SC to convert their barges to steam tugs for some time, but we have no textev yet its happened or going to be done.

Then there is the possibility of 'Alligators'; amphibious steam powered logging tugs [designed in 1878, 230 built from 1889-1932] that used their winch to pull themselves over land at about 1.5-2 miles per day, and capable of pulling a boom of some 60,000 logs in almost all winds.

Despite all the various dragons and lizards mentioned, a large amphibious version hasn't been, IIRC, for some reason, which begs the question of what the ICN/A's version will be called.

Please feel free to make any suggestions, both serious and funny and implausible.

Providing the ICA engineers with steam power for chain saws, cranes, plows and even augers, from small steam engines such that several to a dozen or more depending on their power rating etc could be carried in a dragon wagon would also greatly multiply their combat 'power' support.

L

lmwatbullrun wrote:As demonstrated by the Canal Raid, the key to this war is transport and logistics, and the ability to rapidly construct transport systems can be decisive. Charis can expect that the AOG will destroy the canal system as they retreat in the future. If I were Merlin, I would be thinking about how best to rebuild and extend the transport systems. I would also use heliographs, possibly powered by limelight, to quickly extend the coverage of heliograph tower systems.

One possibility is steam dredges to excavate and expand canals; steam shovels are another technology that runs fine on steam.

Another would be railroads; dragons would work for motive power.

As far as weapons proper, white phosphorus would be nice to have when faced with a mass assault. Flame throwers also.

Hi JeffEngel,

The reason I specified about three times the weight of the 3" mortar at 234 lbs, ie around 700 lbs, was to put in the range of many such mortars from WW2 up to today albeit with much less range, ie keep it very mobile so that 3-4 men could together move the heaviest parts when required or needing only a light wheeled carriage and single horse or pony, while another pulled the ammunition cart/trailer etc.

Even light artillery will weigh at least 2-3 times that, and require far more animal traction at all times.

L

JeffEngel wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Captain Joe Henry,

Welcome to the forums, if you haven't already, please enjoy your favorite simulated beverage on the simulated forum.

RFC came down on posters thinking the war was going to devolve into a WWI trench warfare scenario, when we're looking at real continental warfare, Haven being over 2000 miles north to south minimum [Bay of Bess] versus the ~400 of the western front, before getting into any east-west additions; while the forces involved, even the MHoG are far fewer than WW I's many millions, too few to hold such long lines, when they can easily be marched around.

The Eastern Front of WWI may still be a model; it didn't have the soldier per mile to become a continuous trench line. But the point would still stand.

So RFC didn't think there would be that much need for barbed wire etc.

NTM a few thousand miles of the stuff would cut into production desperately needed elsewhere.

Canned rations are a bit further away until the production bottlenecks are resolved.

Will copper and iron ore suddenly appear once its known the EoC will pay handsomely for it?

Not exactly, but supplies could well ramp up relatively quickly - steam engines will revolutionize mining, and Corisande, Chisholm, Silverlode, and Siddarmark all have a lot of ore mining potential that steam engines and railroads (or even the newer, cheaper sailing ships) will help open up for use.

That's still a next-war kind of thing though.

We haven't seen Katusha's [long discussed here] etc yet because they haven't been needed, ie they're being saved for the MHoG etc.

While we've had hints of smoke and other types of ammunition, again smoke hasn't been needed much when gunpowder is already an excellent battlefield obscurrant.

Real howitzers can be expected to be in action this spring or summer, when their faster rate of fire will be another unpleasant shock to the CoGA armies.

Machine guns aren't needed to win this war, though we may see Lt Zhwaigair come up with a crude revolver or Gatling/Hotchkiss type, that doesn't initially require brass cases.

Increasing the number of 3" mortars is the quickest way to increasing alliance firepower, though I'm all in favor of a comparable 120 mm big brother; at around 4.75" it could be called the 'quarter to five' mortar , firing twice as far with over 3 times the shell weight NTM the HE filing being several times as powerful so if every regiment had at least a dozen...

L

The 3" mortar is pushing the edges of man-carried-in-parts, so the 4.75" one is definitely going to be field artillery rather than a crew-operated infantry one. That is likely to limit how fast you can get it around and where, but when you can fire twice as far, mobility matters a bit less.

Say. Do we know of any reason why none of the artillery is moved around on the battlefield by Safehold native species, one of any of the lizards and dragons? Obviously the largest dragons will be a bit much for most weapons, but are there none in a convenient size. speed, strength and attitude range for artillery?

Hi Doug41,

Glad to meet you for the first time, even if you've been a member for almost a year, so enjoy a simulated beverage etc on me.

I'm somewhat familiar with the type 92, one was in front of the local ROTC building for around a decade some years back.

Granted it was lighter than our 75mm mountain howitzer, now a saluting gun, which broke down into 4 mule loads or carried by 13 [plus] men, it was used by the Indian army into the 1990's, IIRC.

L

doug941 wrote:*quote="JeffEngel"*

*quote*
We haven't seen Katusha's [long discussed here] etc yet because they haven't been needed, ie they're being saved for the MHoG etc.

While we've had hints of smoke and other types of ammunition, again smoke hasn't been needed much when gunpowder is already an excellent battlefield obscurrant.

Real howitzers can be expected to be in action this spring or summer, when their faster rate of fire will be another unpleasant shock to the CoGA armies.

Machine guns aren't needed to win this war, though we may see Lt Zhwaigair come up with a crude revolver or Gatling/Hotchkiss type, that doesn't initially require brass cases.

Increasing the number of 3" mortars is the quickest way to increasing alliance firepower, though I'm all in favor of a comparable 120 mm big brother; at around 4.75" it could be called the 'quarter to five' mortar , firing twice as far with over 3 times the shell weight NTM the HE filing being several times as powerful so if every regiment had at least a dozen...

L

The 3" mortar is pushing the edges of man-carried-in-parts, so the 4.75" one is definitely going to be field artillery rather than a crew-operated infantry one. That is likely to limit how fast you can get it around and where, but when you can fire twice as far, mobility matters a bit less.

Say. Do we know of any reason why none of the artillery is moved around on the battlefield by Safehold native species, one of any of the lizards and dragons? Obviously the largest dragons will be a bit much for most weapons, but are there none in a convenient size. speed, strength and attitude range for artillery?[/quote]

The Imperial Japanese Army had a requirement for an infantry gun that would be perfect for the ICA. It could be fired in direct mode, howitzer mode or mortar mode as needed with elevation of -4 to +70, 10 rpm out to 3,000 yards. A complete piece weighted just under 500lbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_92_battalion_gun[/quote]