Firebrand's agenda...

Theemile wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:He is guilty of conspericy to commit murder on Kornati. He performed an illegal act (the illeagle import and sale of weapons) in the furtherance of a plan to commit murder. It doesn't matter if he did not know that they were planning to commit murder or not. If he performed a leagle action in that furthered the plan, then his knowledge of the plan would matter, but the fact that the action that he performed was illegal means ignorance is not a defense. He smuggled weapons to somebody, they used the weapons to kill people, he is guilty of conspericy.

If they capture him, and want to try him, it will be no harder to extridite him from anywhere in Manticoran space to Kornati than it would be to extridite somebody in the U.S. from Maine to Texas.

Edit to add; I also think he is guilty of conspericy of something (maybe terrorism, maybe just destruction of property) on Montana. He made plans with Weastman to provide material to commit terrorism, then Westman committed terrorism based on those plans. It doesn't matter if he actually provided those materials or not, he could still be tried. A little harder to prove, and it might depend on the wording of the blanket amnisty that was signed, but he could still be tried there. Although, if I was District Attorney equivalent of Montana, I would let Kornati get first crack at him.

He never gave the weapons, he arranged a delivery - or more importantly, he arranged the conditions where a delivery would be made. He didn't know the exact makeup of the deliveries.

It doesn't matter if he doesn't know exactly what was being shipped, he knew it was weapons of some sort. So even if he didn't bring them in himself, he is guilty of conspiracy to do so. It is still an illegal act that contributed to the FAK's actions, making him guilty of conspiracy to commit murder.

Weird Harold wrote:

n7axw wrote:There is such a thing as conspiracy to commit a crime. If Firebrand didn't manage a crime on Montana, it wasn't for lack of good honest effort.

But could he be tried for conspiracy against an entity that no longer exists?

Both Kornati and Montana governments still exist as polities, just in the larger framework of the SEM.

Shadow of Saganami - Chapter 10 wrote:
"Well, you see, Les, that's the problem," Westman said. "It's not so much I want to tell them they don't have the right to decide for themselves. It's just that I don't figure they've got the right to decide for me. This planet, and this star system, have a Constitution. And, you know, I just finished rereading it last night, and there's not a single word in it about anybody having the legal right—or power—to sell off our sovereignty."

"Nobody's violating the Constitution," Haven said stiffly. "That's why the annexation vote was handled the way it was. You know as well as I do that the Constitution does provide for constitutional conventions with the right to amend the Constitution any way they choose, and that's exactly what the annexation vote was. A convention, called exactly the way the Constitution required, exercising the powers the Constitution granted to its delegates."

So yes, they both would have the power to try Firebrand for crimes committed within their jurisdiction. As noted above, a slate of conspiracy charges related to the terrorist acts committed in both locations by his confederates (Nordbrandt and Westman). This would also include murder charges for Nordbrandt's acts and the destruction of Hawk Papa One in Montana orbit. In fact, both Montana and the SEM can each try Firebrand for the destruction of Hawk Papa One. And now that I think about it, Manty Marines were killed when the weapons cache Firebrandt arranged was captured in Camp Freedom on Kornati. So he could be tried by both governments there as well.

ok, I asked a friend of mine who is a ADA (assistant district attorney) and he says that under US federal law Damien Harahap aka Firebrand could be charged with the fallowing crimes

1) Conspiracy to offer material support to terrorist.
2) Material support for terrorist.
3) Conspiracy to ship illegal weapons.
4) Shipping illegal weapons.
5) Espionage.

saber964 wrote:ok, I asked a friend of mine who is a ADA (assistant district attorney) and he says that under US federal law Damien Harahap aka Firebrand could be charged with the fallowing crimes

1) Conspiracy to offer material support to terrorist.
2) Material support for terrorist.
3) Conspiracy to ship illegal weapons.
4) Shipping illegal weapons.
5) Espionage.

Must have a bunch of lawyers here. Fine legal points really don't matter, whoever captures firebrand (Harahap) will be able to do whatever they want to him. Harahap is an agent of the MA and the SEM justice system won't be interested in prosecuting anyone who does anything to firebrand. Besides Firebrand won't live long enough to stand trial. The suicide protocols of the MA will kick in at some point and that will be all the Intel the GA can get out of him. Slight spoiler..........

the MA agent Cachet captured in COG, only lasted a few days but as a field agent who is on long duration assignments, Firebrand probably has a much longer leash. Of course, any physical interrogation or use of truth drugs would just kill firebrand quickly. End spoiler....................

The only way to get really good Intel out of firebrand is for him to give it up voluntarily, though sharp questioning with a Treecat in range could likely turn up some good leads, like just reading through a list of likely planets to find which ones firebrand knew the MA had incited rebellions.

Another minor thing that seems incomplete to me is why have there been no treecat interrogations of either the captured Mesan naval personal from the attack on Torch or Sandra Crandalls bridge crew? Even if these would be low level operatives, possibly not even aware that they were working for the MA, it seems they should be questioned just for thoroughness and whatever insight they could give into MA ops. Not to do so just seems sloppy and careless to me.

Sharp Claw wrote:Another minor thing that seems incomplete to me is why have there been no treecat interrogations of either the captured Mesan naval personal from the attack on Torch or Sandra Crandalls bridge crew? Even if these would be low level operatives, possibly not even aware that they were working for the MA, it seems they should be questioned just for thoroughness and whatever insight they could give into MA ops. Not to do so just seems sloppy and careless to me.

Well, last I knew there was at most 1 treecat left on Torch. The odds that the treecat and human are trained in effective interrogation are pretty small and it's likely they have other things to do.

Plus it's perfectly possible that they have done that, it just hasn't been discussed.

Weird Harold wrote:

looksbeforeheleaps wrote:Not that he wouldn't be locked up for a long time if he were to fall into Manticoran hands, but it would be as a POW rather than "criminal consiracy."

Even if he were still a Gendarme, acting under lawful orders of his lawful superiors, his conduct is that of a spy, saboteur, or terrorist. Under the Geneva accords, he would be considered an unlawful ("unprotected") combatant, entitled to no more than a bullet behind the ear, a hole in the ground, and a shovelful of quicklime. I suspect the Deneb Accords have a similar clause.

Fox2! wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:Not that he wouldn't be locked up for a long time if he were to fall into Manticoran hands, but it would be as a POW rather than "criminal consiracy."

Even if he were still a Gendarme, acting under lawful orders of his lawful superiors, his conduct is that of a spy, saboteur, or terrorist. Under the Geneva accords, he would be considered an unlawful ("unprotected") combatant, entitled to no more than a bullet behind the ear, a hole in the ground, and a shovelful of quicklime. I suspect the Deneb Accords have a similar clause.

Snort! Given that RFC has said he's planning only two more books to wrap up the series, finding and shooting Firebrand would only merit a couple of sentences in another scene. If he gets any screen time, it will be as an intel source, both to find where he's been and to track down Anisinovna.

saber964 Wrote:

ok, I asked a friend of mine who is a ADA (assistant district attorney) and he says that under US federal law Damien Harahap aka Firebrand could be charged with the fallowing crimes

1) Conspiracy to offer material support to terrorist.
2) Material support for terrorist.
3) Conspiracy to ship illegal weapons.
4) Shipping illegal weapons.
5) Espionage.

I think he could also be considered an accessory before the fact for Piracy, given that the attack on Hexapuma's pinnace was considered an act of piracy. That is a crime against Manticore. As for the other charges, I would be very surprised if planetary crimes weren't carried over to the Quadrent's or the Empire's judicial system.

I think the Grand Alliance would go to "extraordinary" methods to capture him. Whether they could remove the suicide protocols, both hardware and software, is another question. And the criminal charges are almost beyond the point, as he is an agent of an enemy power in time of war.

As for interrogation, I think I would like to see Victor and Honor interrogate him while applying sleep deprivation. Either one of them in angry mode could scare a Hexapuma, and Honor's and Nimitz's empathic senses would get past prevarication in short order.

I can only think that if they could turn him would they ever consider allowing him to live. He isn't ideologically Mesan, he is a free-lancer with a very good idea of what would happen to him if he failed the Onion. So I have no idea how he would respond to a deal.

As for Aldona Anisimovna, it is almost impossible for me to find a way where she is captured alive. Between her ship self-destructing, her bodyguard offing her, or her implants killing her, I think the is a infinitesimal chance of capturing her. It would take Victor and Anton arranging an off-ship trap for her that disabled her and killed her bodyguard to have a chance of doing that.

-- Bob G

Sharp Claw wrote:"saber964"]ok, I asked a friend of mine who is a ADA (assistant district attorney) and he says that under US federal law Damien Harahap aka Firebrand could be charged with the fallowing crimes

1) Conspiracy to offer material support to terrorist.
2) Material support for terrorist.
3) Conspiracy to ship illegal weapons.
4) Shipping illegal weapons.
5) Espionage.

Must have a bunch of lawyers here. Fine legal points really don't matter, whoever captures firebrand (Harahap) will be able to do whatever they want to him. Harahap is an agent of the MA and the SEM justice system won't be interested in prosecuting anyone who does anything to firebrand. Besides Firebrand won't live long enough to stand trial. The suicide protocols of the MA will kick in at some point and that will be all the Intel the GA can get out of him. Slight spoiler..........

the MA agent Cachet captured in COG, only lasted a few days but as a field agent who is on long duration assignments, Firebrand probably has a much longer leash. Of course, any physical interrogation or use of truth drugs would just kill firebrand quickly. End spoiler....................

The only way to get really good Intel out of firebrand is for him to give it up voluntarily, though sharp questioning with a Treecat in range could likely turn up some good leads, like just reading through a list of likely planets to find which ones firebrand knew the MA had incited rebellions.

Another minor thing that seems incomplete to me is why have there been no treecat interrogations of either the captured Mesan naval personal from the attack on Torch or Sandra Crandalls bridge crew? Even if these would be low level operatives, possibly not even aware that they were working for the MA, it seems they should be questioned just for thoroughness and whatever insight they could give into MA ops. Not to do so just seems sloppy and careless to me.[/quote]


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We know Firebrand was brought into the outer layers of the Onion, but I doubt he knows any critical / operational info outside his area of operations / responsibility.
We really don't know if any suicide protocols were injected into him. There are no "Pings" in Talbott or Madras to trigger by presence or absence.
In the long run Damien Haprap is a limited intel asset that the MA/RA will either drop when they don't need him, or he will become a "loose end" to be cleaned up if he is not captured.

-- Stewart

Not intending to argue the point here, but do we really have textev for Firebrand being in on the onion? That does seem unlikely to me sinse my impression of the guy is that he is a free lancer whose loyalty doesn't go much beyond his paycheck. Not really a very likely candidate for the onion...

Don