OpForce against OpForce

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:Something interesting to consider is if McQueen had lived, would she have been the CO of Operation Beatrice? And if so, would she have fared any better?

She would have been the head of state of Haven had she survived, unless you're suggesting an alternate universe where Pierre and Saint-Just kept her away from Nouveau Paris... and the front lines. Empress, Citizen Chairwoman, Hereditary President or an actual bona fide elected President intent on winning all her elections by any means in a Frank Underwood sense.

It's scary, thinking what McQueen would or could do with the kind of prestige that Eloise Pritchart earned for holding public elections and allowing a hundred systems to voluntarily leave, along with punishing StateSec personnel.

Probably devote even more resources to Bolthole, forget about Operation Thunderbolt entirely and throw Beatrice as her opening punch. Against a RMN Home Fleet savaged by High Ridge and Janacek budgetary cuts and policies.

It's funny that you bring this up, because I'm going to get philosophical with you for a minute here.

I see - will likely always see - Esther McQueen as Eloise Pritchart's dark twin. Her mirror, if you will. Both of them ruthless, both determined to pull Haven out of its centuries-long quagmire, both pragmatic and charismatic...

The difference between them, as I see it (and correct me if I'm wrong here, because I haven't read the earlier books for some time), is that their ambition was directed toward different targets. McQueen's was for herself first, her star nation second. Pritchart's was for her nation first, last, and always, never for herself. She didn't want political power. She had to be persuaded to accept it. And therein lay the difference, because it is those most reluctant to lead who are often the leader their nation needs most.

roseandheather wrote:But when all the odds are stacked against you, even the brightest military genius in the world can't win. And pre-Theisman coup, against Honor Stephanie Harrington armed with the most cutting-edge ships Manticore had, all the odds would have been stacked against her.

I'd note just as an aside here two things

1 - There was no time period in the novels where Esther McQueen and Honor Harrington were peers; Honor didn't get her first large fleet command until Sidemore Station in War of Honor; her largest first war era command was her Grayson battle squadron in Flag in Exile. If she'd been around for later battles in the first war, she'd have been Hamish's counterpart, not Honor's. In the second war, presuming her coup succeeded and the second war happened anyway (unlikely, mostly because McQueen would almost certainly not have authorized the assassination attempts that killed Cromarty, so no High Ridge government, and it's unlikely Giancola would have risen to a position of power in a McQueen government, regardless of its form), she'd be head of government and/or head of state, and so a peer of William Alexander and/or Queen Elizabeth.

2 - I don't think we know anything at all about what kind of government McQueen intended to establish, or what her political goals are. We know she considered political power to be necessary for a Havenite flag officer who wanted to survive, but other than that, not much.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:
Something interesting to consider is if McQueen had lived, would she have been the CO of Operation Beatrice? And if so, would she have fared any better?

She would have been the head of state of Haven had she survived, unless you're suggesting an alternate universe where Pierre and Saint-Just kept her away from Nouveau Paris... and the front lines. Empress, Citizen Chairwoman, Hereditary President or an actual bona fide elected President intent on winning all her elections by any means in a Frank Underwood sense.

It's scary, thinking what McQueen would or could do with the kind of prestige that Eloise Pritchart earned for holding public elections and allowing a hundred systems to voluntarily leave, along with punishing StateSec personnel.

Probably devote even more resources to Bolthole, forget about Operation Thunderbolt entirely and throw Beatrice as her opening punch. Against a RMN Home Fleet savaged by High Ridge and Janacek budgetary cuts and policies.

Nah, truthfully I wasn't suggesting the alternate universe you mentioned. I just plum forgot what would have happened had she lived.

Although, I like that alternate version. It could very well have happened just as you say, had she survived away from the front lines after being pulled away from Trevor's Star.

Throwing Beatrice as her opening punch? Now that's a horror story of the Stephen King variety.

I just can't help but thinking that if she'd somehow been present at Operation Beatrice, things would have gone a bit differently for the Manties. And that RFC probably would have given us exactly that alternate ending had he gone ahead and snuffed out the Salamander.

Can you imagine McQueen present at that battle?

Roll the film projectionist! Oh how I remember the days of broken and spliced projector film.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:Something interesting to consider is if McQueen had lived, would she have been the CO of Operation Beatrice? And if so, would she have fared any better?

She would have been the head of state of Haven had she survived, unless you're suggesting an alternate universe where Pierre and Saint-Just kept her away from Nouveau Paris... and the front lines. Empress, Citizen Chairwoman, Hereditary President or an actual bona fide elected President intent on winning all her elections by any means in a Frank Underwood sense.

It's scary, thinking what McQueen would or could do with the kind of prestige that Eloise Pritchart earned for holding public elections and allowing a hundred systems to voluntarily leave, along with punishing StateSec personnel.

Probably devote even more resources to Bolthole, forget about Operation Thunderbolt entirely and throw Beatrice as her opening punch. Against a RMN Home Fleet savaged by High Ridge and Janacek budgetary cuts and policies.

Cthia wrote:Nah, truthfully I wasn't suggesting the alternate universe you mentioned. I just plum forgot what would have happened had she lived.

Although, I like that alternate version. It could very well have happened just as you say, had she survived away from the front lines after being pulled away from Trevor's Star.

Throwing Beatrice as her opening punch? Now that's a horror story of the Stephen King variety.

I just can't help but thinking that if she'd somehow been present at Operation Beatrice, things would have gone a bit differently for the Manties. And that RFC probably would have given us exactly that alternate ending had he gone ahead and snuffed out the Salamander.

Can you imagine McQueen present at that battle?

Roll the film projectionist! Oh how I remember the days of broken and spliced projector film.

And what if Haven had not been hindered for so long while involved in a four-pronged war,
1. Pierre
2. St. Just
3. StateSec
4. Manticore...

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:Something interesting to consider is if McQueen had lived, would she have been the CO of Operation Beatrice? And if so, would she have fared any better?

She would have been the head of state of Haven had she survived, unless you're suggesting an alternate universe where Pierre and Saint-Just kept her away from Nouveau Paris... and the front lines. Empress, Citizen Chairwoman, Hereditary President or an actual bona fide elected President intent on winning all her elections by any means in a Frank Underwood sense.

It's scary, thinking what McQueen would or could do with the kind of prestige that Eloise Pritchart earned for holding public elections and allowing a hundred systems to voluntarily leave, along with punishing StateSec personnel.

Probably devote even more resources to Bolthole, forget about Operation Thunderbolt entirely and throw Beatrice as her opening punch. Against a RMN Home Fleet savaged by High Ridge and Janacek budgetary cuts and policies.

roseandheather wrote:
It's funny that you bring this up, because I'm going to get philosophical with you for a minute here.

I see - will likely always see - Esther McQueen as Eloise Pritchart's dark twin. Her mirror, if you will. Both of them ruthless, both determined to pull Haven out of its centuries-long quagmire, both pragmatic and charismatic...

The difference between them, as I see it (and correct me if I'm wrong here, because I haven't read the earlier books for some time), is that their ambition was directed toward different targets. McQueen's was for herself first, her star nation second. Pritchart's was for her nation first, last, and always, never for herself. She didn't want political power. She had to be persuaded to accept it. And therein lay the difference, because it is those most reluctant to lead who are often the leader their nation needs most.

I get the exact same read on McQueen, with explanation.

Yes, McQueen's ambition was directed at herself first and her star nation second. But only because she was concerned with dying and she wanted to live. She wanted to take the reigns of power because she also wanted to take charge of her own life - and the only way to do so, as she saw it, was to throw off the bonds of oppression and assume power. Although they all, Eloise included, feared for their life, McQueen was in a much more dire circumstance that focused her concern upon her self. Death has a way of focusing one's thoughts. She could actually see her head in the guillotine and felt her ass in a vise. But I have no doubt in my mind that she would have restored the Republic.

The main difference between her and Eloise, is that she would have looked to end the war by conquering Manticore. And I'm not so certain, even after she became President, that she wouldn't have conceived of her own slight twist to Operation Beatrice - by insisting on leading the charge herself, and everyone, especially the Manties...

Sneer and be damned, to borrow from her chief spook.

It's how things were done in the days of yore, the King led the charge. Swashbuckling is romantic. And had she done so, virtually freed her star nation from war with her own bloody bare hands, that would have placed her firmly in power, for the long haul. A heroine for the Republic.

I never got the impression that her desire for power was misplaced.

I got the distinct impression that she also dreamed of peace. Albeit, through victory, by conquering.

.

drothgery wrote:1 - There was no time period in the novels where Esther McQueen and Honor Harrington were peers; Honor didn't get her first large fleet command until Sidemore Station in War of Honor; her largest first war era command was her Grayson battle squadron in Flag in Exile. If she'd been around for later battles in the first war, she'd have been Hamish's counterpart, not Honor's. In the second war, presuming her coup succeeded and the second war happened anyway (unlikely, mostly because McQueen would almost certainly not have authorized the assassination attempts that killed Cromarty, so no High Ridge government, and it's unlikely Giancola would have risen to a position of power in a McQueen government, regardless of its form), she'd be head of government and/or head of state, and so a peer of William Alexander and/or Queen Elizabeth.

In Flag in Exile, for Operation Stalking Horse, then Vice Admiral McQueen commanded TF 30, comprising 16 SD's and 39 screening units. At 4th Yeltsin, Admiral Harrington commanded 6 SD's, approximately 88 screen units, and had the system fixed defenses theoretically on call as well. That would make them rough peers at that moment. (And that probably understates her role in the GSN, as its highest ranking officer normally in the field and given its growth thereafter before her return to RMN service, as, well, an armed freighter skipper.)

cthia wrote:The main difference between her and Eloise, is that she would have looked to end the war by conquering Manticore. And I'm not so certain, even after she became President, that she wouldn't have conceived of her own slight twist to Operation Beatrice - by insisting on leading the charge herself, and everyone, especially the Manties...

While I agree that McQueen would be less reluctant to reach for the military option, I still don't think she could have improved RHN performance in Beatrice with the same conditions that Theisman's New Octagon team and Tourville's staff laboured under. McQueen's good, but she's not THAT much better than them. Leading 2nd Fleet gets her killed or forced to surrender. Leading 5th Fleet, now... well, while she might make the realisation quicker than Chin did and get into hyper sooner, that would only put her in the politically unenviable position of beating a retreat after not just losing a million personnel, but abandoning them.

JeffEngel wrote:In Flag in Exile, for Operation Stalking Horse, then Vice Admiral McQueen commanded TF 30, comprising 16 SD's and 39 screening units. At 4th Yeltsin, Admiral Harrington commanded 6 SD's, approximately 88 screen units, and had the system fixed defenses theoretically on call as well. That would make them rough peers at that moment. (And that probably understates her role in the GSN, as its highest ranking officer normally in the field and given its growth thereafter before her return to RMN service, as, well, an armed freighter skipper.)

That's pretty close, but there's no textev for what McQueen was doing before the Pierre Coup. Given the rapid rise of many PN officers in the following months and years, she could have been anything from a Commander to a Rear Admiral. Would be interesting to see a heavy cruiser or battlecruiser duel, though I believe Honor has already proven capable of punching way above her tonnage class in those ships.

munroburton wrote:

cthia wrote:The main difference between her and Eloise, is that she would have looked to end the war by conquering Manticore. And I'm not so certain, even after she became President, that she wouldn't have conceived of her own slight twist to Operation Beatrice - by insisting on leading the charge herself, and everyone, especially the Manties...

While I agree that McQueen would be less reluctant to reach for the military option, I still don't think she could have improved RHN performance in Beatrice with the same conditions that Theisman's New Octagon team and Tourville's staff laboured under. McQueen's good, but she's not THAT much better than them. Leading 2nd Fleet gets her killed or forced to surrender. Leading 5th Fleet, now... well, while she might make the realisation quicker than Chin did and get into hyper sooner, that would only put her in the politically unenviable position of beating a retreat after not just losing a million personnel, but abandoning them.

I wasn't so much as harping on McQueen's presence as seriously altering the absolute outcome, inasmuch as the championing of the Salamander's defeat at the hands of McQueen - which leads to the defeat of Manticore. Because I still maintain that if anyone could have defeated Honor, then she was the she. No, what I mainly propose, is that if McQueen had been present, RFC could have picked that moment to kill off the Salamander.

The way I see it, because of McQueen's superior wiles and cunning, that she would have been in Tourville's position and not have made his mistake. She'd have smelled something amiss and outwaited the Salamander, thus trapping her. Honor would have been killed, had McQueen been present. That being the case, the Manticoran Home system would have fallen. IMHO.

And that's what I'm selling.


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Curious, I always imagined who would RFC have given the honors(pun intended) of killing Honor had he gone ahead with his original Salamander snuffing plan? Whose ship or fleet would RFC have bestowed that Honor?

I think he'd have spared McQueen for that Honor. Believable. More probable. Again, IMHO.

I think it would have been Chin's fleet, which killed McKeon (in Honor's place). Because of the number of missiles flying around it might not be possible to know which ship landed the killing blow.

to hop in on the McQueen debate, wouldn't she almost guaranteed be compared against Honor?

Hamish himself, admits that McQueen is quite probably a better tactician than he was (during the leadup to Manticore finally taking Trevor's Star). But that he had a slight edge strategically.

And then Honor, was eventually acknowledged to be approximately as good as Hamish was, after her command performance at Sidemore, and the later Eighth Fleet 2.0 actions. So we would end up with a rough equation of (loosely speaking):

McQueen = Hamish = Honor


One commander we should also be keeping our eyes on, is Caparelli himself. He proved himself at a strategic level during the entirety of the First Havenite War, and also proved he's not just "a bull in a china shop" that PRH thought he'd be. He was also well thought of, by Webster, and even Hamish grudgingly admitted he's a good choice, which could be interpreted to say Caparelli is "good enough" in a tactical manner.