New devices of war (howitzers to razor wire and all between)

Had a long time to think whilst flying back from the Middle East... The more I think about it, the more I'm inclined to think Charis now has all the pieces in place to build either mechanically cranked or fully automatic (gas actuated) machine guns. A mechanically-cranked device would be probably something like an early-generation Gatling gun, but a water-cooled machine gun (see WWI history) could be a real game changer. Charis has proven that they can make good high-quality steel, "real" center-fire cartridges, and understands the idea of a breech-fed weapon. I'd bet they could easily manufacture a basic machine gun capable of 300-400 rounds per minute max-rate fire.

WeberFan wrote:Charis has proven that they can make good high-quality steel, "real" center-fire cartridges, and understands the idea of a breech-fed weapon. I'd bet they could easily manufacture a basic machine gun capable of 300-400 rounds per minute max-rate fire.

We've had several discussions on how Charis will bring automatic firearms to fruition. My view is that an AK-47 clone would better suit the ICA's demonstrated "fire and maneuver" tactical preference than a crew served automatic weapon.

The main argument in favor of a Gatling or Hotchiss style rotary machine gun is that it can be implemented before smokeless powder becomes available; they are the only types that will work with black or brown powder fouling.

A Hotchiss style rotary cannon would be beneficial for naval ships for close in defenses, but the army needs something more mobile than Gatlings, Hotchkiss, Maxim or any crew-served, belt-fed machine-gun. They need magazine-fed select-fire weapons in either assault-rifle caliber or battle-rifle caliber.

The model 96 uses cartridges similar to the .30-06 so why not the heavy water cooled browning .30 machine gun and the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) of US Army fame both use the same cartridge. Possibly the M-3 grease gun clone for for a Machine pistol firing the revolver cartridge. The less types of ammunition the less chance for logistic problems.

Poker

pokermind wrote:...why not the heavy water cooled browning .30 machine gun ...

Because it is belt-fed and crew served.

pokermind wrote:The model 96 uses cartridges similar to the .30-06 so why not the heavy water cooled browning .30 machine gun and the Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) of US Army fame both use the same cartridge. Possibly the M-3 grease gun clone for for a Machine pistol firing the revolver cartridge. The less types of ammunition the less chance for logistic problems.

Poker

The down side is that all of these are only suited to smokeless powders. Automatic weapons also have a heavier average recoil and resulting muzzle climb to cope with. Step one is therefore to drop the caliber from the 1/2" in the 96 to .30 or below unless you are talking tripod mounted guns.
The Kalashnikov used a more lightly loaded and smaller volume round created for it as the previous standard Russian round packed to much of a punch to handle in automatic fire from a hand held position.
For assault work there is a reason the M-16 is now limited to three round bursts - the fourth round goes through the ceiling if you aren't prepared.
Assault pump action shotguns may be a better close quarter weapon (and these work with gunpowder).
The other restriction with gunpowder weapons is smoke - if you can't see it you can't hit it reliably. The first shot is aimed, the next shot is guesswork. This was the big change in the first world war, the defenders weren't dealing with their own smoke screen and could see the next target after the first shot.

A side point, from Merlins point of view, is how easy is it to reverse engineer anything Charis puts into use. After all, besides winning the war, he wants to drive the Church into technical innovation.

Annachie wrote:A side point, from Merlins point of view, is how easy is it to reverse engineer anything Charis puts into use. After all, besides winning the war, he wants to drive the Church into technical innovation.

Another important side point: Merlin doesn't want to give them all the answers; he wants them to come up with them by themselves. He'd likely help if they were hitting a fundamental conceptual roadblock, but even there, it might only be by making the odd statement designed to provoke the listener into thinking along new lines. That's consistent with the mission of CDR Nimue Alban, TFN, and it's that mission that is where Merlin's decision procedure will be rooted.

CDR Alban's mission, as implemented by her PICA and "Merlin" identity, needs Charis to have a technical advantage, but not so much of one that the war against the CoGA becomes "shooting fish in a barrel". And don't forget that some of the Innermost Circle - certainly Cayleb - know that, and know that Charis winning - or even surviving, really - is, to CDR Alban, secondary to breaking the psychological stranglehold that Langhorne's religion has on the entire world - including on the innovative nation of shopkeepers known as the Empire of Charis.

FreeTrav wrote:

Annachie wrote:A side point, from Merlins point of view, is how easy is it to reverse engineer anything Charis puts into use. After all, besides winning the war, he wants to drive the Church into technical innovation.

Another important side point: Merlin doesn't want to give them all the answers; he wants them to come up with them by themselves. He'd likely help if they were hitting a fundamental conceptual roadblock, but even there, it might only be by making the odd statement designed to provoke the listener into thinking along new lines. That's consistent with the mission of CDR Nimue Alban, TFN, and it's that mission that is where Merlin's decision procedure will be rooted.

CDR Alban's mission, as implemented by her PICA and "Merlin" identity, needs Charis to have a technical advantage, but not so much of one that the war against the CoGA becomes "shooting fish in a barrel". And don't forget that some of the Innermost Circle - certainly Cayleb - know that, and know that Charis winning - or even surviving, really - is, to CDR Alban, secondary to breaking the psychological stranglehold that Langhorne's religion has on the entire world - including on the innovative nation of shopkeepers known as the Empire of Charis.

I don't think Merlin minds "shooting fish in a barrel" where the COGA is concerned. I understand the logic of the pressurized research war induces. But I suspect that the primary goal right now is to break the political power of the COGA and the inquisition's power to coerce. That opens up the way for innovation on the mainland.

Since originally posting my response, I've done some research based on something that was bubbling around at the back of my brain...

The Maxim Machine Gun (circa 1883) was a true game changer. Originally used non-smokeless cartridges (which tended to give away the gun's location obviously). Could fire up to 600 rounds/minute.

Interestingly, it was the first RECOIL actuated machine gun - not mechanically cranked, and not gas actuated (which made it much simpler).

It COULD be operated by a single person, but was more commonly crew served (likely a gunner and a loader). Drawback was that it was water-cooled (necessary because it was a single-barrel design).

In 1893-1894 in Rhodesia, 700 British soldiers reportedly fought off 3,000 natives using 4 Maxims.

So we have:
- Simple design and manufacture.
- Rapid firing.
- Significant "shock and awe" factor.
- Capable of operating with non-smokeless cartridges.

Given that the Temple forces will likely attack in large numbers with significant breech-loading, rifled muskets soon, Charis needs a way to push vast amounts of fire downrange at close ranges. Can you even imagine the Temple forces encountering interlocking, final-protective-fires from machine guns? The shock and morale-disrupting effect would be staggering methinks...

WeberFan wrote:Given that the Temple forces will likely attack in large numbers with significant breech-loading, rifled muskets soon, Charis needs a way to push vast amounts of fire downrange at close ranges. Can you even imagine the Temple forces encountering interlocking, final-protective-fires from machine guns? The shock and morale-disrupting effect would be staggering methinks...

The only problem with the Maxim is that it is a crew-served "heavy" weapon -- heavy both in terms of fire-power and in terms of literal weight. It is best suited to defensive works and trench warfare; it is NOT suited to the offensive needs of the ICA and RSA.

The ICA needs something mobile and and "personal" -- ie not requiring a crew or fixed position to be effective. Something with the fire-power of a "trench broom" and close to the range of a battle rifle but light and magazine fed so it doesn't slow down an assault...