The Inquisition Reformed. (SPOILER/SPECULATION)

The most effective revelations that will bring reform to the Church with the Moral Authority required to be an effective means of purging the Vicars, Archbishops and Bishops when the Military defeat of the Church is complete is simple (not really):

1. Appoint Paityr Wylsynn as Grand Inquisitor – he has the History of being a Schuelerite, Intendant, Member of the Wylsynn Clan and possessor of the artifact that has the message for the Church from Schueler himself.

2. With the Recon Skiff and the Assault Shuttle (as an element of persuasion) do a tour to the Capitals insisting on the attendance of the Secular leadership and Church Authorities, Show the Schuler speech and explain/demonstrate the Verifier. Perhaps have a large scale apparition over the city showing the process to bring it to the public.

3. First deny the Book of Schuler then run the entire Vicarage and Archbishoprics through the Inquisition via the Verifier (starting with the Info provided by Nynian and the SoSK) but limit the punishment to that of a secular nature that fit the crimes: i.e.: Economic, Social and purely Punitive

4. Broadcast in those venues above and published in the broadsheets the Process of the NEW Inquisition, the results and the punishment/penance applied (would need to make a lot of real printing presses and distribute widely).

5. Appoint the old Archbishop of Glacierheart as the new Grand Vicar and rebuild the Vicarages throughout Safehold.

6. Require the Vicars to Live in their Vicarages and submit to the NEW Inquisition (VERIFIER) as to the performance of their duties and responsibilities.

7. Eventually have the equivalent of a Council of Nicea to review the Core documents of Safehold (introducing the Saint Kohdy, St Zherneau and Terran Histories.

8. Maintain the control of Technology to some degree as the Ghaba are still out there.

9. The Church must be reformed and also used to progressively introduce the history and plans for the future (salvation of the Human Race and destruction of the Ghaba).

The Church cannot be destroyed out right. Defeated and Reformed . . . . yes! New Institutions and a Spiritual/Social focus that do not allow for selfish aggrandizement of the Priesthood is necessary. A few generations and subsequent upheaval are to be expected but the benefits of Technology, the Purification of the Priesthood, Universal Education and abolishment of Slaves and Serfs will win over a few generations

dwileye13 wrote:The most effective revelations that will bring reform to the Church with the Moral Authority required to be an effective means of purging the Vicars, Archbishops and Bishops when the Military defeat of the Church is complete is simple (not really):

1. Appoint Paityr Wylsynn as Grand Inquisitor – he has the History of being a Schuelerite, Intendant, Member of the Wylsynn Clan and possessor of the artifact that has the message for the Church from Schueler himself.

Prior to this, there's call to make the argument that an Inquisition should exist at all. Policing belief is something that can be roundly rejected. Policing behavior can be relegated to the police functions and personnel of secular states, and out of Church control entirely. And compliance with the Prohibitions, while it's relevant, can also be put in the hands of secular authorities.

The Inquisition has been a key part of the Church getting out of control and needing pruning, reform, and fragmentation. Giving it a new lease on life, much less improving its reputation, is a step backwards.

2. With the Recon Skiff and the Assault Shuttle (as an element of persuasion) do a tour to the Capitals insisting on the attendance of the Secular leadership and Church Authorities, Show the Schuler speech and explain/demonstrate the Verifier. Perhaps have a large scale apparition over the city showing the process to bring it to the public.

It's been Merlin's and the Inner Circle's policy to keep far away from Archangel-style miracles. Large scale apparitions (!) fly right in the face of that. Anyone seeing them is going to think they're looking at the work of Archangels - or Fallen ones. So the people doing this have to pretend to be Archangels or be dismissed as tools of Shan-wei. If they pretend to be Archangels, (1) development of science on Safehold gets torpedoed, and (2) they will be discredited as soon as they are revealed or suspected to be anything other than Archangels, including trickster mortals happy to get compliance pretending to be heavenly beings.

3. First deny the Book of Schuler then run the entire Vicarage and Archbishoprics through the Inquisition via the Verifier (starting with the Info provided by Nynian and the SoSK) but limit the punishment to that of a secular nature that fit the crimes: i.e.: Economic, Social and purely Punitive

Government by use of a single inexplicable magical device is going to be mighty fragile and again, hugely contrary to the development of a scientifically inquiring, open-minded, technically adventurous Safehold with secular legal and political traditions.

4. Broadcast in those venues above and published in the broadsheets the Process of the NEW Inquisition, the results and the punishment/penance applied (would need to make a lot of real printing presses and distribute widely).

Certainly a public, transparent process is promising for forwarding the rule of law - unfortunately, what you'd be revealing here doesn't have enough to do with that.

5. Appoint the old Archbishop of Glacierheart as the new Grand Vicar and rebuild the Vicarages throughout Safehold.

While he's a good and decent man, and ought hopefully to have a leadership role or at least be a fine example for Safehold's future religious establishments, I have to worry that Zhasyn Cahnyr isn't going to enjoy success or popular acclaim if he needs to be appointed by people imposing an entire church on Safehold at the points of angelic devices.

6. Require the Vicars to Live in their Vicarages and submit to the NEW Inquisition (VERIFIER) as to the performance of their duties and responsibilities.

Doesn't this extensive use of the verifier as a device to assure compliance, in the hands of a body apparently still above outside control, seem to be a vastly worse police state than the Inquisition has already made the Church?

7. Eventually have the equivalent of a Council of Nicea to review the Core documents of Safehold (introducing the Saint Kohdy, St Zherneau and Terran Histories.

Urrph. The Council of Nicea was to establish a single orthodoxy. The revelations of St. Zherneau and the History of the Terran Federation particularly will shatter orthodoxy on Safehold, and rightly so.

8. Maintain the control of Technology to some degree as the Ghaba are still out there.

Certainly the use and development of technology on Safehold needs to be regulated with an eye toward avoiding 500-1000 years of light-speed transmissions before Safehold humanity is ready to take the Gbaba on. But there's every reason to suppose the Gbaba are not looking, so Safehold does have that several century safety margin between beginning to make much use of radio and having to handle a hyperspace-travelling genocidal empire. That would make regulation for purposes of avoiding Gbaba detection a very, very mild requirement.

Avoiding the orbital bombardment system, now that is a more urgent matter, but there's reason to hope that maybe knowledgeable control of the Temple may be able to neutralize that.

Otherwise, having some central authority empowered and charged to control all technology on Safehold is just re-inventing the problem the Church has posed for several hundred years. Cayleb hasn't done all this with the ambition of being the new Langhorne.

9. The Church must be reformed and also used to progressively introduce the history and plans for the future (salvation of the Human Race and destruction of the Ghaba).

Well - yes. The Church, after all, controls most education on Safehold, so certainly that portion is going to have a key role in teaching people the truth.

The Church cannot be destroyed out right. Defeated and Reformed . . . . yes! New Institutions and a Spiritual/Social focus that do not allow for selfish aggrandizement of the Priesthood is necessary. A few generations and subsequent upheaval are to be expected but the benefits of Technology, the Purification of the Priesthood, Universal Education and abolishment of Slaves and Serfs will win over a few generations

One hopes and expects so, yes. But it can't be by means of recreating Langhorne's methods, with the all-seeing eye of the Verifier and a priesthood imposed by conquerors living in fear of an Inquisition of any sort.

The inquisition needs to be done away with, not reformed, although that's probably easier said than done.

I worry a bit about those parts of the inquisition out away from Zion being preempted by the local autocrats as secret police once the centralization in Zion has been dealt with.

At any rate, the right idea is to set Safehold free of the inquisition, not find some new use for it.

Don

SNIP

Jeff,

To reprise the points:
1. The Inquisition has absorbed the position of being the police, judge and literally executioner for all of Safehold. How is any victory by the EoC going to proceed without the structure of a Judicial System? Relegated to the secular powers? Please name any that have any credibility.

Initially the head (literally) of the Inquisition needs to be removed – then reformed/dissolved. But not until after the judgements of those corrupt personages in power is complete.

2. It is not a miracle or pretending to be an Archangel if the method is explained then demonstrated. The Truth will out and how is the process to be initiated? Schueler’s monologue is descriptive and honest, many will not accept it but that will be true of anything that is out of the historical norm. Everything EoC is currently attributed to Shan-wei, so what is there to lose. Demonstrate the Skiff as the one the supposed 'Archangels' used for their own purposes as things not miracles.

3. The Verifier is like other tools used in the Temple, Door Keys, Heating, Lighting and so on. Open the Temple to the Public to see what the “Archangels” left for the Church. Justice by self-incrimination is dangerous, which could be used temporarily then phased out by the creation of a Bill of Rights. Can anyone trust the Victors to be honorable – Merlin and Nimue would be the enforcers with Owl and the Plump Prince to help.

4. Transparency in the Justice Process is required if you are to transition to a Secular Judicial system.

5. Zhansyn doesn’t require popular acclaim, he needs to provide Leadership in the Reformation. He is Honest and Reform minded as well as being a part of the CoGA before the Jihad. He has respectability and the desire to reform the Church.

6. Who said anyone was beyond control or there would be a police state. Asking (verifying) about intent and actions of People in positions of Trust and Authority is not tyranny. Using it for nefarious control is tyranny.

7. The ultimate end point of any path will shatter the orthodoxy of Safehold. The fact that Safehold is a colony of a greater society has to be revealed and the religious, political and philosophical assets of that society will, over time, give Safehold a medium for a renaissance of it’s own.

8. Who said the Ghaba are 500-1000 light years away? there exists a system to control the level of technology. The EoC can loosen the controls through the Reformed Church as they continue to transition to a more Secular Society.

9. Why do you expect that Merlin and Nimue are going to oversee another Langhorne methodology or would allow a Fascist Society. Outside of the Orbital Bombardment system they control more physical military power than the rest of the world. I have yet to see them as self-serving or naïve.

dwileye13 wrote:SNIP

Jeff,

To reprise the points:
1. The Inquisition has absorbed the position of being the police, judge and literally executioner for all of Safehold. How is any victory by the EoC going to proceed without the structure of a Judicial System? Relegated to the secular powers? Please name any that have any credibility.

Initially the head (literally) of the Inquisition needs to be removed – then reformed/dissolved. But not until after the judgements of those corrupt personages in power is complete.

2. It is not a miracle or pretending to be an Archangel if the method is explained then demonstrated. The Truth will out and how is the process to be initiated? Schueler’s monologue is descriptive and honest, many will not accept it but that will be true of anything that is out of the historical norm. Everything EoC is currently attributed to Shan-wei, so what is there to lose. Demonstrate the Skiff as the one the supposed 'Archangels' used for their own purposes as things not miracles.

3. The Verifier is like other tools used in the Temple, Door Keys, Heating, Lighting and so on. Open the Temple to the Public to see what the “Archangels” left for the Church. Justice by self-incrimination is dangerous, which could be used temporarily then phased out by the creation of a Bill of Rights. Can anyone trust the Victors to be honorable – Merlin and Nimue would be the enforcers with Owl and the Plump Prince to help.

4. Transparency in the Justice Process is required if you are to transition to a Secular Judicial system.

5. Zhansyn doesn’t require popular acclaim, he needs to provide Leadership in the Reformation. He is Honest and Reform minded as well as being a part of the CoGA before the Jihad. He has respectability and the desire to reform the Church.

6. Who said anyone was beyond control or there would be a police state. Asking (verifying) about intent and actions of People in positions of Trust and Authority is not tyranny. Using it for nefarious control is tyranny.

7. The ultimate end point of any path will shatter the orthodoxy of Safehold. The fact that Safehold is a colony of a greater society has to be revealed and the religious, political and philosophical assets of that society will, over time, give Safehold a medium for a renaissance of it’s own.

8. Who said the Ghaba are 500-1000 light years away? there exists a system to control the level of technology. The EoC can loosen the controls through the Reformed Church as they continue to transition to a more Secular Society.

9. Why do you expect that Merlin and Nimue are going to oversee another Langhorne methodology or would allow a Fascist Society. Outside of the Orbital Bombardment system they control more physical military power than the rest of the world. I have yet to see them as self-serving or naïve.

Nice post. There are several things here to respond to...

It's not accurate to say that the inquisition provides Safehold's judicial system. The inquisition is responsible for enforcing church law and in such matters such as enforcing the proscriptions, the secular authorities are expected to cooperate with the inquisition. While it is true that rulers assume their thrones with the blessing of the church, all realms have their own judicial systems that function separately from the inquisition in matters concerning the civil order. So the absense of the inquisition would not impact on matters concerning "the king's bench."

So far as we know, the Ghaba do not go looking for races to extiminate. That's from RFC in the Pearls, I think. What happens is that they respond to intruders in what they regard as their sphere of interest. So if the ark expedition got away clean, there would be no pursuit. However, to be on the safe side, the colonists were to "go bush" for 500 years to be sure that if there were any scout ships looking for the escapees, they would have time to pass Safehold and then to return home without detecting any emissions. The argument amongst the command crew was that Langhorne wanted to bury the colonists in deepest hole possible and stay buried. The proscriptions were to ensure that humanity never developed the tech necessary to return to space. Shan-wei and her followers, on the other hand, felt that no matter how deeply the Safehold colony was buried, that eventually the pattern imposed by Langhorne would deteriorate and humanity would return to space. Far better that the colonists be forewarned about the Ghaba and the level of tech required to survive against them than to once again be caught without adequate preparation. Thus the recovery of tech was to begin at the 500 year mark, assisted by those enclaves where it had been preserved. That was in accord with the original mission plan. Accordingly, Pei Kauyung set the timer on the awakening of Nimue's PICA at the 750 year mark to provide an additional 250 year safety margin against discovery by the Ghaba. So at this point, humanity should be able to redevelop its tech and return to space without undue concern about the Ghaba, provided reasonable caution is exercised. That is the theory Merlin is operating on anyway.

Don

n7axw wrote:
[snip]

So far as we know, the Ghaba do not go looking for races to extiminate. That's from RFC in the Pearls, I think. What happens is that they respond to intruders in what they regard as their sphere of interest. So if the ark expedition got away clean, there would be no pursuit. However, to be on the safe side, the colonists were to "go bush" for 500 years to be sure that if there were any scout ships looking for the escapees, they would have time to pass Safehold and then to return home without detecting any emissions. The argument amongst the command crew was that Langhorne wanted to bury the colonists in deepest hole possible and stay buried. The proscriptions were to ensure that humanity never developed the tech necessary to return to space. Shan-wei and her followers, on the other hand, felt that no matter how deeply the Safehold colony was buried, that eventually the pattern imposed by Langhorne would deteriorate and humanity would return to space. Far better that the colonists be forewarned about the Ghaba and the level of tech required to survive against them than to once again be caught without adequate preparation. Thus the recovery of tech was to begin at the 500 year mark, assisted by those enclaves where it had been preserved. That was in accord with the original mission plan. Accordingly, Pei Kauyung set the timer on the awakening of Nimue's PICA at the 750 year mark to provide an additional 250 year safety margin against discovery by the Ghaba. So at this point, humanity should be able to redevelop its tech and return to space without undue concern about the Ghaba, provided reasonable caution is exercised. That is the theory Merlin is operating on anyway.

Don

I checked the pearls and didnt find anything about the Gbaba except in passing. Certainly not that they didnt go looking for victims. Do you have a Weber quote somewhere? Because IMHO the idea of passive Gbaba flies in the face of most of the in-book information.

I'll see what I can come up with. I took that off the top of my head, but it got up there somehow...

I'm afraid the top of my head gets pretty cluttered sometimes!!

Don

2. With the Recon Skiff and the Assault Shuttle (as an element of persuasion) do a tour to the Capitals insisting on the attendance of the Secular leadership and Church Authorities, Show the Schuler speech and explain/demonstrate the Verifier. Perhaps have a large scale apparition over the city showing the process to bring it to the public.

It would end up as inprecedent civilization-scale disaster. The probability of Safeholdian Dark Age in case of such revelations is uncomfortably high. It would not be just the revelation - it would be the shocking collapse of millenia-scale culture and religion.

Go to the home page of this website and look under faq. On p. 4 of the faq there is question and comment about the Gbaba. It doesn't specifically address your point, but much of the other info is what I cited.

As for your point, it might also have come up in conversation on the the forum. David stops by here sometimes and has provided some very nice info dumps on a quit a few subjects. I am just not able to be more precise at the moment.

Don

JeffEngel wrote:The Inquisition has been a key part of the Church getting out of control and needing pruning, reform, and fragmentation. Giving it a new lease on life, much less improving its reputation, is a step backwards.

I expect the Inquisition to be curtailed and reformed much as the Catholic Church has reformed their Inquisition -- Which, despite rumors to the contrary, does still exist, albeit without the professional torturers and lack of control characterized by past versions.