HQ Snippet #21 3-27-15

lyonheart wrote:However much PeterZ thinks the alliance must negotiate if Duchairn promises to try to fix things, we have no textev at all that Duchairn even intends to offer any terms at all; his whole effort that we've read being about 'getting' Clyntahn, which is a great deal shy of mending the church, healing the schism, or reparations for the Jihad etc.

L

That last seems a bit harsh on Duchairn. Getting Clyntahn is, at most, something he hopes for deep, deep down where it won't be seen. His chief effort has been to restore the Church's role as a genuine benefactor of those in need; his second, logistical and financial support of Clyntahn's jihad.

I think we could trust Duchairn himself to want to fix a lot about the Church - that ambition and project is his desperate shot at personal expiation in his own eyes and that of his God. Or at least, the thing he's woken up to realizing he should have been doing all along and has gotten around to seriously now. But fixing what about the Church is another issue. Not sufficiently funding hospitals, orphanages, and shelters was certainly a failing of the Church, but so were little faux pas like torturing people to death, controlling entire nations and sentencing some to death, massive corruption, and blind eyes to rapists in the Vicarate. So yeah, there's a lot left to do that he's not been able to try to do, and it's an open question just how much of it he'd care or dare to even with Clyntahn out of the picture. The unity of the Church is still a dream of his, and plenty of Reformers may well think that a unified Church is too vulnerable to abusiveness whatever other reforms get promised or tried. (And no, that's not disagreeing with you - it's more playing up details.)

Right now, Duchairn is, I think, less of a conspirator waiting for his shot or a likely offerer of terms for a surrendering CoGA and more someone trying to fight a war successfully, with some trace of honor, and get the Church doing the right thing as much as he can with Clyntahn working so successfully to make it do all the wrong ones. We're speculating far down a limb otherwise.

Hi JeffEngel,

Kudos for another excellent post.

The circle was pretty certain in BSRA that a reconciliation wasn't possible back in the very early days of the CoC, and we've no textev that Duchairn has any intention of attempting such in the almost 5 years since, when things have grown so much worse in terms of Clyntahn's atrocities, further polarizing and poisoning the prospects.

I think Duchairn is far more realistic than PeterZ in terms of what he knows the alliance would even begin to consider, after all that he and the Go4 have tried to do to them, and how little he could do to meet those minimum demands, after he manages to remove Clyntahn, assuming he does.

He may indeed want to make some reforms, but how much time will he have, and how long will they last after he is replaced?

Given the systemic nature of the CoGA's corruption, what reforms do you think have a chance of working in the first place?

Dialing the inquisition's power back to what it was before it gained so much control 2-3 centuries ago is barely a drop in the bucket to start with.

While it's obvious that Duchairn quietly respects and admires Maikel, the CoGA can't follow the CoC lead without major drastic purging of the CoGA's current priesthood at all levels, because where Maikel has taken the CoC is the antithesis of the CoGA, in terms of influence on the government and daily life.

Were Duchairn to propose such changes, he'd probably be opposed by close to a million or two of his own clergy, or almost all of those left in the CoGA, to say nothing of the rabid right general members, who will oppose any attempt to treat with the heretics, because the Holy Writ says that's obviously impossible for God's church to do.

Declare a false jihad?

Again impossible.

Claim the Grand Vicar is a powerless figurehead?

Duchairn is obviously delusional and must be removed from the vicarate will be the common consensus.

Since Duchairn already knows that how will he survive such an onslaught from his supposed supporters?

Admitting that the church was wrong in attacking Charis as the KotTL, then declaring the jihad isn't going to be immediately accepted by the still believing rank and file, even if their priests suspect he's telling the truth.

Are they going to admit he might be right?

When they could easily be torn limb from limb by their former flocks?

Duchairn hasn't had that kind of courage to stand up for what he knows is right either, for the same reason.

Duchairn's options are far more limited than the alliance's, his odds of success far less.

L

JeffEngel wrote:

lyonheart wrote:However much PeterZ thinks the alliance must negotiate if Duchairn promises to try to fix things, we have no textev at all that Duchairn even intends to offer any terms at all; his whole effort that we've read being about 'getting' Clyntahn, which is a great deal shy of mending the church, healing the schism, or reparations for the Jihad etc.

L

That last seems a bit harsh on Duchairn. Getting Clyntahn is, at most, something he hopes for deep, deep down where it won't be seen. His chief effort has been to restore the Church's role as a genuine benefactor of those in need; his second, logistical and financial support of Clyntahn's jihad.

I think we could trust Duchairn himself to want to fix a lot about the Church - that ambition and project is his desperate shot at personal expiation in his own eyes and that of his God. Or at least, the thing he's woken up to realizing he should have been doing all along and has gotten around to seriously now. But fixing what about the Church is another issue. Not sufficiently funding hospitals, orphanages, and shelters was certainly a failing of the Church, but so were little faux pas like torturing people to death, controlling entire nations and sentencing some to death, massive corruption, and blind eyes to rapists in the Vicarate. So yeah, there's a lot left to do that he's not been able to try to do, and it's an open question just how much of it he'd care or dare to even with Clyntahn out of the picture. The unity of the Church is still a dream of his, and plenty of Reformers may well think that a unified Church is too vulnerable to abusiveness whatever other reforms get promised or tried. (And no, that's not disagreeing with you - it's more playing up details.)

Right now, Duchairn is, I think, less of a conspirator waiting for his shot or a likely offerer of terms for a surrendering CoGA and more someone trying to fight a war successfully, with some trace of honor, and get the Church doing the right thing as much as he can with Clyntahn working so successfully to make it do all the wrong ones. We're speculating far down a limb otherwise.

Wow, I've been worried about Duchairn seizing control of the CoGA and offering terms to the allies, leaving us with an "Ashes of Victory" moment. I never realized how powerless Duchairn would be even if he managed to do away with the Go4 and seized "control" of the CoGA.

I think I'll sleep a little better now that I realize just how little room Duchairn would have to bargain.

Hi PeterZ,

I'm sorry I didn't respond to this sooner, but I feel must.

No one ever said it was going to be easy to change or eradicate the CoGA, as I've said repeatedly it will take generations.

Beating them militarily by taking the Temple etc is a tremendous way to get all the rest of the CoGA congregations to rethink what they think they know about the church and the vicarate.

Please tell me a better way, if you can.

Given how the archangels failed God, why can't the CoGA?

That was after all Maikel's point to Klairmant.

If fallible mortal men can screw up God's own gift to Safehold, would he attempt to purge the old corrupt and pathetic shadow of what he made, or would he start anew?

Given that the CoGA's corruption has been such an open secret for centuries, why wouldn't God finally start fresh?

What greater proof of what God has done now than to so miraculously defeat the CoGA against such long odds?

What other way would you do it?

Regarding reconciliation, who besides you seems to favor it, since there's no textev favoring it at all?

I don't mean to push, but your whole premise here has no basis in any textev I can see, let alone who in the CoGA would let Rhobair offer any terms to the alliance in the first place?

I usually find your points much more solidly based than this, so I hope you can provide some kind of better explanation.

Best wishes,

L

PeterZ wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:Now, don't you guys go reading too much speculation into this one . . . .

_______________________________________________


snip

Merlin nodded, his own expression sober.

The problem, from the viewpoint of someone attempting to debunk the lie Langhorne and his command crew had crafted so carefully, was that literally nothing in the Safeholdian worldview offered a thread he could pull to unravel it.
snip

This passage is the core of why I don't believe military victory will be sufficient to truly defeat the CoGA, especially with the Return due back within three decades.

Safehold has the monolithic moral paradigm of any society in human history.

Morality in Safehold infuses not just human behavior but also natural processes.

The CoGA was created by God to complete His plan for humanity after the archangels returned to heaven.

If the EoC and CoC conquers the CoGA rather than reforming it, whatever it decides to do will not carry the legitimacy of the CoGA. Nothing will because no matter what else they do the CoC will have destroyed God's gift to man; His Church.

The only way true reconciliation can happen is with CoGA approval while they still have a choice.

Just snipping things til I get to the slightest bit I could disagree with or add to...

lyonheart wrote:While it's obvious that Duchairn quietly respects and admires Maikel, the CoGA can't follow the CoC lead without major drastic purging of the CoGA's current priesthood at all levels, because where Maikel has taken the CoC is the antithesis of the CoGA, in terms of influence on the government and daily life.

"At all levels" may be an exaggeration. The parish priests, the monks and nuns in the cloisters, the ones taking care of so many schools, hospitals, orphanages... could all be thrilled or at least content after the shock wore off. It's when you get up in the management levels and in the Inquisition you'd have the resistance - though those are precisely the levels that can cause a whole lot of problem, short of a revolution.

It may as well be stated here and now - what Duchairn needs isn't a coup, he needs that coup followed by an immediate revolution. And he not only may not realize that yet, he may not ever be able to accept it or to be a revolutionary personally even then.

Rhobair Duchairn is, alas, a man for a time ten years past, and tends not to be catching up well.

Were Duchairn to propose such changes, he'd probably be opposed by close to a million or two of his own clergy, or almost all of those left in the CoGA, to say nothing of the rabid right general members, who will oppose any attempt to treat with the heretics, because the Holy Writ says that's obviously impossible for God's church to do.

Declare a false jihad?

Again impossible.

Claim the Grand Vicar is a powerless figurehead?

Duchairn is obviously delusional and must be removed from the vicarate will be the common consensus.

Since Duchairn already knows that how will he survive such an onslaught from his supposed supporters?

Admitting that the church was wrong in attacking Charis as the KotTL, then declaring the jihad isn't going to be immediately accepted by the still believing rank and file, even if their priests suspect he's telling the truth.

Are they going to admit he might be right?

When they could easily be torn limb from limb by their former flocks?

Duchairn hasn't had that kind of courage to stand up for what he knows is right either, for the same reason.

Duchairn's options are far more limited than the alliance's, his odds of success far less.

L

I'm not sure it's lack of courage. I doubt it - he's already running huge risks, a virtual death sentence that's only delayed as long as he's necessary, and he knows it. He could have been a passive accomplice instead of pushing the envelope for Zion's starving and been home-free. But he's not making a move that will do nothing but get him killed.

Alas, trying to stop Clyntahn and the jihad really is that difficult (!), in addition to personally suicidal, and alive he can do something for someone.

But yeah, his odds are crazily bad. Too remote to be seriously considered in the near future. The only thing that may make it sorta-possible will be the changing fortunes of war. It has a tendency to make the unthinkable unavoidable for one party or both. If the jihad fails, if Clyntahn's leadership brings the Church to the brink of destruction, if the only way to save any of it is to reform it beyond all the recognition of ten years' past... those priests, even those remaining vicars, may be ready for a revolution, or others may be so very ready for one as to swamp/imprison those reluctant sorts.

But there's still the issue of the Church's desperate willingness to change to survive reaching Charis and Siddarmark's willingness to accept terms it could stomach - and hardliners being marginalized enough and assorted sides' tolerances getting communicated well enough. Frankly, the combinations are so messy that some of the best chances for a reformed but surviving CoGA may follow unconditional surrender to Charis Triumphant in the Plaza of Martyrs.

Hi JeffEngel,

Again full marks for an excellent post.

Just as the BF reserve fleet intimidated everyone in and around the SL for centuries, the obvious power of the CoGA has intimidated everyone on Safehold for almost a thousand local years, until Charis says "No Mas", first by Haarahld VII, then his son.

Having destroyed its own moral authority without even thinking about it as Nahrmahn pointed out, the morally bankrupt CoGA can now only compel by force, which isn't working too well at the moment, and will in fact continue to get much worse.

Unless Clyntahn were doing what Sebastian MacMaine did in Randall Garrett's "The Highest Treason", and we know he isn't from reading his psychopathic thoughts, he couldn't be a better advertisement for why the CoGA must be destroyed.

The fact that Duchairn wants to off Clyntahn is all well and good, but how does he go from there to surviving long enough to make any offer to the alliance in the first place, let alone be able to keep any promises he makes?

What he may want and what he may be able to do are as distant as night and day if not further.

L

JeffEngel wrote:*quote="PeterZ"*[quote="runsforcelery"]Now, don't you guys go reading too much speculation into this one . . . .

_______________________________________________


snip

Merlin nodded, his own expression sober.

The problem, from the viewpoint of someone attempting to debunk the lie Langhorne and his command crew had crafted so carefully, was that literally nothing in the Safeholdian worldview offered a thread he could pull to unravel it.
snip
*quote*

This passage is the core of why I don't believe military victory will be sufficient to truly defeat the CoGA, especially with the Return due back within three decades.

Safehold has the monolithic moral paradigm of any society in human history.

Morality in Safehold infuses not just human behavior but also natural processes.

The CoGA was created by God to complete His plan for humanity after the archangels returned to heaven.

If the EoC and CoC conquers the CoGA rather than reforming it, whatever it decides to do will not carry the legitimacy of the CoGA. Nothing will because no matter what else they do the CoC will have destroyed God's gift to man; His Church.

The only way true reconciliation can happen is with CoGA approval while they still have a choice.

The Church of Charis enjoys reasonable moral authority in the Empire - enough for the large majority to back it and their Emperor and Empress against the Church of God Awaiting. People like Earl Thirsk or Rhobair Duchairn outside it, knowing what the Church is like, can't blame them for it either.

So either it's capable of commanding the loyalty of people of Safehold - absent the coercive power of the Inquisition and secular powers in its pocket - as a part, representative, or true heir of that Church, or that the Church is God's gift isn't overwhelmingly important to them. That doesn't mean questioning the Writ's account of history, necessarily, but it may mean figuring that the moral chain of legitimacy from God to Langhorne to Clyntahn got broken along the way.

If reconciliation took the assent of the Temple, then Charis would have overthrown its monarchy as soon as the Temple's opinion of its monarchs became clear. Instead, we have a pattern of that sense of the legitimacy of the Temple's authority running along familiar bases, whatever the historical or theological consensus: it runs as far as people fear or admire it, no further. The militaries of Charis and Siddarmark are breaking the fear; Clyntahn is breaking the admiration, no matter Duchairn's heroic efforts to bail it out.

The Writ is going to be re-interpreted as need be to meet the world people find themselves in. Changing its account of matters of fact is all the challenge Merlin is making it out to be, but the matters of legitimacy and moral authority can vary on their own given pressure.[/quote]

Hi JeffEngel,

Thank you for another impressive post.

I understand and accept your corrections or emendations, which I might have made or alluded to if I hadn't been in such a hurry, so thanks for that as well.

L

JeffEngel wrote:Just snipping things til I get to the slightest bit I could disagree with or add to...

lyonheart wrote:While it's obvious that Duchairn quietly respects and admires Maikel, the CoGA can't follow the CoC lead without major drastic purging of the CoGA's current priesthood at all levels, because where Maikel has taken the CoC is the antithesis of the CoGA, in terms of influence on the government and daily life.

"At all levels" may be an exaggeration. The parish priests, the monks and nuns in the cloisters, the ones taking care of so many schools, hospitals, orphanages... could all be thrilled or at least content after the shock wore off. It's when you get up in the management levels and in the Inquisition you'd have the resistance - though those are precisely the levels that can cause a whole lot of problem, short of a revolution.

It may as well be stated here and now - what Duchairn needs isn't a coup, he needs that coup followed by an immediate revolution. And he not only may not realize that yet, he may not ever be able to accept it or to be a revolutionary personally even then.

Rhobair Duchairn is, alas, a man for a time ten years past, and tends not to be catching up well.

Were Duchairn to propose such changes, he'd probably be opposed by close to a million or two of his own clergy, or almost all of those left in the CoGA, to say nothing of the rabid right general members, who will oppose any attempt to treat with the heretics, because the Holy Writ says that's obviously impossible for God's church to do.

Declare a false jihad?

Again impossible.

Claim the Grand Vicar is a powerless figurehead?

Duchairn is obviously delusional and must be removed from the vicarate will be the common consensus.

Since Duchairn already knows that how will he survive such an onslaught from his supposed supporters?

Admitting that the church was wrong in attacking Charis as the KotTL, then declaring the jihad isn't going to be immediately accepted by the still believing rank and file, even if their priests suspect he's telling the truth.

Are they going to admit he might be right?

When they could easily be torn limb from limb by their former flocks?

Duchairn hasn't had that kind of courage to stand up for what he knows is right either, for the same reason.

Duchairn's options are far more limited than the alliance's, his odds of success far less.

L

I'm not sure it's lack of courage. I doubt it - he's already running huge risks, a virtual death sentence that's only delayed as long as he's necessary, and he knows it. He could have been a passive accomplice instead of pushing the envelope for Zion's starving and been home-free. But he's not making a move that will do nothing but get him killed.

Alas, trying to stop Clyntahn and the jihad really is that difficult (!), in addition to personally suicidal, and alive he can do something for someone.

But yeah, his odds are crazily bad. Too remote to be seriously considered in the near future. The only thing that may make it sorta-possible will be the changing fortunes of war. It has a tendency to make the unthinkable unavoidable for one party or both. If the jihad fails, if Clyntahn's leadership brings the Church to the brink of destruction, if the only way to save any of it is to reform it beyond all the recognition of ten years' past... those priests, even those remaining vicars, may be ready for a revolution, or others may be so very ready for one as to swamp/imprison those reluctant sorts.

But there's still the issue of the Church's desperate willingness to change to survive reaching Charis and Siddarmark's willingness to accept terms it could stomach - and hardliners being marginalized enough and assorted sides' tolerances getting communicated well enough. Frankly, the combinations are so messy that some of the best chances for a reformed but surviving CoGA may follow unconditional surrender to Charis Triumphant in the Plaza of Martyrs.

Hi Don,

Kudos for a truly excellent post.

Nahrmahn made such excellent points didn't he?

Once the circle and SSK revelations about how long the CoGA has failed to fulfill its duty to God and his children are published by OWL, some CoGA members may be asking, like Nynian, what took him so long?

The idea of the CoGA confessing to even a fraction of its corruption beggars the mind, if it intends to continue to claim its God's voice on Safehold.

I don't see many priests, let alone the rest of the vicarate, ever letting anything risk their power and position, especially given the dangers of even contemplating treating with heretics.

Exactly how after admitting its been so corrupted as to declare a false jihad and push the SoS stab in-the-back atrocity on an continental scale, NTM the Rakurai, ever claim any moral authority and be trusted again, especially if just one man was mainly to blame, which appears to be PeterZ's recommendation to Duchairn.

If one man can do so much evil for so long and the rest of the CoGA leadership makes no attempt to stop him for 5+ years, how can such a thing be prevented from happening ever again?

How can the rest of the vicarate be good men if they did nothing while he wreaked such havoc?

What kind of punishment do such pitiful or 'double-plus ungood' men deserve?

The certain earthquakes resulting from such confessions or revelations could be as destructive to the CoGA as losing the war.

There are far too many priests and such who think and believe it'd be better to lose than admit any corruption or mortal weakness by the CoGA, regardless of what the alternative is.

The alliance will be glad to oblige them.

Remember how many Germans and Japanese were willing to immolate themselves in following Hitler and Hirohito until the latter had second thoughts.

L

n7axw wrote:*quote="PeterZ"*[quote="runsforcelery"]Now, don't you guys go reading too much speculation into this one . . . .

_______________________________________________


snip

Merlin nodded, his own expression sober.

The problem, from the viewpoint of someone attempting to debunk the lie Langhorne and his command crew had crafted so carefully, was that literally nothing in the Safeholdian worldview offered a thread he could pull to unravel it.
snip
*quote*

This passage is the core of why I don't believe military victory will be sufficient to truly defeat the CoGA, especially with the Return due back within three decades.

Safehold has the monolithic moral paradigm of any society in human history.

Morality in Safehold infuses not just human behavior but also natural processes.

The CoGA was created by God to complete His plan for humanity after the archangels returned to heaven.

If the EoC and CoC conquers the CoGA rather than reforming it, whatever it decides to do will not carry the legitimacy of the CoGA. Nothing will because no matter what else they do the CoC will have destroyed God's gift to man; His Church.

The only way true reconciliation can happen is with CoGA approval while they still have a choice.

It is certainly true that winning militarily over the COGA does not destroy the church's legitimacy. But the COGA can destroy its own legitimacy. And it has been working hard on that.

But even after the power of the COGA is crushed, its beliefs will live on in the minds in a majority of Safehold's people. But it's moral authority will have been shattered, first by the corruption of the vicars and then by the brutality of the inquisition when knowledge of the death camps becomes widely known. Even cleaning out the corrupt vicars and getting a fresh group of better people can't change that. There will always be that taint coloring perceptions of the COGA that will prevent it from ever being fully trusted the way it was before the attack on Charis and the Sword of Schuler.

Perhaps Nahrman puts it best,

"The one thing in the entire world that the Church can't afford to lose is its moral authority as God's voice, His steward among His people, Trahvys." His voice was very, very soft. "That's been the true basis for the world's unity--and the Church's power--since the day of creation itself. But now the Group of Four has just thrown that away, as if it were so unimportant, so trivial, that it wasn't worth so much as a second thought. Only they were wrong. It wasn't unimportant; it was the only thing that could have saved them. Now it's gone. And that, Trahvys--that--is something they will never, ever be able to get back again." BSRA, Year of God 892, Section VI.

Don[/quote]

Hi PeterZ,

Blaming everything on Clyntahn can't cover all the rest of the CoGA sins.

The mere fact the rest let him commit such atrocities means they are all complicit in them with him.

Expecting them to admit their complete guilt to all the world and then hope there's not a rope waiting after such a confession just doesn't seem likely from my experience with humanity.

So Rhobair may get Clyntahn, but how much further he moves on your projected program seems far too optimistic.

The idea that all TL's will accept any reformation if the CoGA somehow approves it [as if it could] really boggles the mind.

How can they?

Do you truly expect all those promoting the jihad to admit they were so stupidly and blindly wrong?

Even assuming their public confessions are sincere, how do they atone for what they've done?

The biggest and best argument to persuading the CoGA that times have changed and change is now in order is to take Zion and the temple.

Attempting to negotiate only when the CoGA is clearly losing doesn't appear to me to indicate any real repentance, only excuses bent on staving off certain disaster.

Promises to fix or limit the inquisition as the primary basis for the alliance to let the CoGA survive are to petty as to be immediately dismissed.

Exactly how does Rhobair integrate the CoC etc back into the CoGA?

Its obvious he knows that doctrinally they are too opposed to rationalize away the differences, so why do you think the CoC and reformists all want to be reintegrated into the CoGA when the inner circle are determined to destroy it?

While Rhobair may want to save the CoGA from military defeat, healing his church is out of the question and preventing military defeat simply impossible.

Given the vast distance we've seen people like Anvil Rock etc move in their beliefs, their understanding of why the CoGA is too corrupt to let it ever again threaten them or their grandchildren is all rather telling in where RFC intends to go.

I think Duchairn understands that process is happening too much to stop or reverse and growing.

Getting the Grand Vicar confessing he was only the mouthpiece for the false jihad seems too irrational for such a storyteller as RFC.

Any acceptance of the CoC in any way defeats the announced jihad of God's church and it anointed leaders, ie a defeat for God unless the CoGA no longer speaks with God's voice, which from the corruption you expect them to admit seems more likely to be accepted.

L

PeterZ wrote:Don,

Don't conflate the Church's moral authority for that of the G4. In all my arguments I have emphasized Clyntahn being blamed for the jihad. Think about what the opposing clerics call themselves...Reformists. They don't want to destroy the CoGA. Just like the Sisters of St. Khody, the want to reform the CoGA. Removing the ungodly from power is just a start.

The loyalists will accept reform if the CoGA accepts reformation. The CoC and reformists must present arguments that persuade the CoGA. That is most likely done before the EoC conquers the jihadis militarily.

So the blame for the jihad falls on human corruption and is repaired by a faithful son of God. Clyntahn is removed and a Godly man takes over. That godly man offers to negotiate peace. How can the Allies ever reject that peace without confirming that they serve the Dark in the eyes of loyalists? That confirmation is only emohasized with a military defeat. God is letting the Dark temper the souls of his children just as He used the Dark to temper the souls of mankind in the War of the Fallen.

I know you and many others disagree with ne, Don. I just don't see how Duchairn can risk military defeat when that would make reunification nearly impossible? He either conquers Charis and slowly integrates them back into the CoGA over time or negotiates some autonomy for the CoC and true CoGA reform. A military defeat means Duchairn has failed again to heal his Church. I don't believe he can let that happen.

n7axw wrote:
It is certainly true that winning militarily over the COGA does not destroy the church's legitimacy. But the COGA can destroy its own legitimacy. And it has been working hard on that.

But even after the power of the COGA is crushed, its beliefs will live on in the minds in a majority of Safehold's people. But it's moral authority will have been shattered, first by the corruption of the vicars and then by the brutality of the inquisition when knowledge of the death camps becomes widely known. Even cleaning out the corrupt vicars and getting a fresh group of better people can't change that. There will always be that taint coloring perceptions of the COGA that will prevent it from ever being fully trusted the way it was before the attack on Charis and the Sword of Schuler.

Perhaps Nahrman puts it best,

"The one thing in the entire world that the Church can't afford to lose is its moral authority as God's voice, His steward among His people, Trahvys." His voice was very, very soft. "That's been the true basis for the world's unity--and the Church's power--since the day of creation itself. But now the Group of Four has just thrown that away, as if it were so unimportant, so trivial, that it wasn't worth so much as a second thought. Only they were wrong. It wasn't unimportant; it was the only thing that could have saved them. Now it's gone. And that, Trahvys--that--is something they will never, ever be able to get back again." BSRA, Year of God 892, Section VI.

Don

Hi Weird Harold,

Excellent points!

The circle knew reconciliation was impossible almost 5 years ago, why PeterZ continues to think anyone thinks it has a chance is passing strange.

Exactly what can Rhobair offer the CoC and reformists they won't have already achieved on their own?

Promises they won't be tortured if they visit CoGA countries to visit or trade?

Reparations from a bankrupt church?

How can he keep any promise he does make?

How can any reforms survive him?

L

Weird Harold wrote:

PeterZ wrote:...I just don't see how Duchairn can risk military defeat when that would make reunification nearly impossible? ...

Reunification is already nearly impossible; as impossible as Catholics and Protestants reforming into a single Church.

Military defeat or negotiated peace, the Church on Safehold is permanently sundered as surely as Christianity was permanently sundered (again) as soon as Martin Luther nailed his Theses on that church door. The dichotomy of "a personal contract with God" versus "Central Authority in all things" is irreconcilable.