(SPOILERS) The reasons for the Archangel's return

OrlandoNative

OrlandoNative wrote:He may have just been agnostic.

If you cannot answer yes to the question, "Do you believe there is a god?" then you are an atheist. I suppose one could have some mental illness that prevent one from knowing what they believed but otherwise it is that simple. Agnostic is usually(every time I have heard it defined by someone not deriding it) use in reference to what one believes about the evidence. For instance an atheist might('might', some do some don’t) say that they know god doesn’t exist. An agnostic would probably say that they think the there isn’t enough evidence to know whether god exists. The difference between theist and atheist is not what they think about the evidence for and against the proposition(that might be why one is one or the other though). The difference is whether one does or does not believe there is a god.

OrlandoNative wrote:Mmm... on the question of slavery, the Bible, taken as a whole,......

See my previous Final Note for my take on what the bible does or does not endorse.

OrlandoNative wrote:It's true there have been periods of time where technology hasn't progressed *much.....

I wasn't talking about the rest of the world. If you require that the entire world be used in any analogy than you will always be able to find some place that bucked the trend. As for the short time period, well what do you expect? Almost any place on earth that completely stagnated for too long got invaded and taken over. Also Safehold isn't earth. Safehold is one society. I will concede your point about the crudity of Homo Sapiens starting point though.

OrlandoNative wrote:....We don't know. While I agree it would be a somewhat bitter humor to find out that the "Return" was just another check on Langhorne's original plan, it doesn't mean it couldn't be.

Why the return will not be an end to Langhorn's plan. I said end not a progress check. It could be a onetime progress check, but it cannot be an end. Otherwise, you have the same problem as Gilligan building a boat.

OrlandoNative wrote:...... True, anyone who awakened might have to stay awake long enough for the repair to complete, but I don't really see anyone awakening for just an hour or two anyway.

You could have the first of say, five visits. However planning on actually having something physical last tens of thousands of years is insane(actually insane, evaporation might be a problem if you left something that long). Plus repair can only go so far, what do you do when data is simply lost. A thousand years in the future the Holocaust Deniers could have a point(then, not now). We could very well have lost almost all of the evidence by then and certainly lost much of the original physical evidence to decay.

OrlandoNative wrote:...."God" says to build a wall or dig a hole, how many folks are really going to ask "Why?"

The temple was built with Federation technology so it would be 'Angels' doing the work. So no "God says" scenario. The point I am making her was that ONE person couldn't have done it. I am saying nothing about twenty.

OrlandoNative wrote:Sheer speculation. We don't even know if the books will go as far as the Return.....

We do know that RFC plans for the Gbaba to return at some point. So unless the big G are returning before the 'return' we will see the return. Also, no anything cannot happen. RFC is constrained by his own writing style and past event in the series. Therefore, what won't happen is Merlin dying a pointless death in despair as all his friends die. That could happen in the Dune series but RFC doesn't write that way. See Honor Harrington's 'death' and the almost universal happy endings for RFC’s ‘good guys’.

OrlandoNative wrote:.....It *could* be an issue, or not. The story line could go either way......

If the bombardment platform really is just junk than the entire series is pointless. Merlin could have destroyed all the fleets and armies of the temple from his skimmer(or similar vehicle) and the series would be over. See the horror of all the pointless deaths for why that won't happen.

OrlandoNative wrote:It's possible, but how likely? 1000 years vs the maximum tested 100? One would have to be extremely lucky.

I did say the "Merlin had a thought that they might have been insane enough..." and if they did try, some of them might beat the odds. If the odds were 99:1 then put 100 people into stasis and five hundred years later, you get out one person. Heavy attrition but you do get biological people.

OrlandoNative wrote:Whomever it might be, it's likely to be more than one. Since it's mentioned as the "Archangels" - plural - ....

I see no reason to limit the possible 'return' to one person. So I agree there.

OrlandoNative wrote:This is what probably most of the readers assume to be the case. If so, not all that imaginative.

Not all that imaginative is not an argument. That said see the next point I made. You quoted it next in your post. See below for requite.

OrlandoNative wrote:

Highjohn wrote:What it actually is:

Nothing we have thought of. The almighty author is much more creative than us and a much better writer so he almost certainly has something planned which is better than anything we think of. Not that it isn't fun to speculate.

OrlandoNative wrote:Well, we've covered quite a few possibilities. It could be some mixing and matching. Or, yes, maybe something entirely different. After all, the Ghaba could just stumble over them a year before the Return, and wipe them all out. Not exactly the ending we might expect or want, but, then again, that's sort of up to the author, isn't it?

No that won't happen RFC isn't an complete asshole.

OrlandoNative wrote:Actually, I'm not convinced beliefs have changed.....

Yes they might. On the other hand what percentage of the population are those people? You can still find believers(sincere and possibly on this forum) who believe in Thor, Poseidon or Zeus. The point is that the vast majority of people I the Southern United States felt that way and now the vast majority in the Southern United States don't. There was a change of religious beliefs. If want an even more obvious change in religious belief see the Roman Catholic Church and limbo. They actually have decreed the change in belief and they formulated limbo earlier too. So there were too changes in belief. One limbo exists. Two no it doesn't.

Note: If slavery was reinstituted it probably would be racially based. Racism is the most likely justification for that and there is plenty of racism to go around. The other real option would be some sort of indentured servitude or selling oneself to clear debt.

Note 2: The quotes are used as markers, nothing else. I am trying to reduce the length of the post(Yes I know the length is my fault). So I am using small excerpts to make it easy to find what I am responding to.

While I have read this entire thread and enjoyed a lot of the various spitballing within it, both the lighter and heavier variants, one thing I saw has bugged me that seems to have not been addressed. I get the reasons for why the OBS would not worked for the Gbaba on the ground given what we know about their patterns for destruction of planet being bombardment, not conquest. I also get that of course such ships that could resist the missiles the Terran Federation was using would also not have trouble with simple kinetic weapons or missiles created to protect the OBS from purely Terran level threats by the remnants of the Langhorn faction.

What I don't get though is why, with all the clearly well thought out consideration here is why no one pointed out what seemed to me to be the most obvious flaw of an outward pointing OBS, where does it get the energy? Isn't the whole point of a kinetic weapon the fact that it is the energy created by gravitational increase as it descends from orbit to the planet? So far as I understand from the series the OBS is purely kinetic in nature, there aren't warheads of any type being used. Sure the OBS has a defensive net to deal with anything short of a full scale warship as I understand it, but isn't it already established in textev that such a warship would be more than it could handle, and therefore would not be a threat to the Gbaba in any way even leaving aside the issue of the nature of the weapons of the OBS itself?

I'm sorry if I seem to be nitpicking here, it was just something that when I first read it in this thread my brain locked up on, I simply couldn't understand how an outward kinetic weapons system would have any possible real threat ability in the main armament, and the defensive capacity for the system was already shown to be only up to the large warship scale as I recall from the beginning of the series (which granted I haven't re-read for the some double digit time as of late). Did I miss something somewhere in the past? Is the OBS more than kinetic weaponry and instead actual missiles of some sort? That is where my confusion comes from here and why I've come off my usual lurking tendency (yes, I read here a lot more than I write), and I thank all in advance for their forebearance on my questioning on this point.

Bluenoser wrote:What I don't get though is why, with all the clearly well thought out consideration here is why no one pointed out what seemed to me to be the most obvious flaw of an outward pointing OBS, where does it get the energy?

Considering that 99% of the time the OBS is just sitting there doing nothing but (presumably) passively watching the planet, it's energy requirements and that of its defenses isn't all that high.

So several possibilities:
1) It's solar powered. Or at least uses solar power to reduce any consumption of fuel required to power everything. That should be enough to reduce fuel consumption to zero and top off the batteries if all it's doing is watching the planet. It may even be enough if weapons fire is infrequent enough.

2) Its builders gave it plenty of fuel and it's not going to run out any time soon, especially if it's using solar power for most routine power consumption. It only needs to start up the fusion reactors or whatever when the batteries start getting low. If the batteries never get low, then the fusion reactors never start up and no fuel ever gets consumed.

3) In addition to self repair systems, its builders also put in some means of refueling itself. Which it only uses if fuel stocks get low.

4) None of the above. The OBS is actually low on power, fuel, ammo, and is about to die, although that's not evident from the outsider's perspective. It only has enough resources for one more Armageddon Reef style bombardment and then it's done, hence why the Key can only be used ONCE. The whole threat of repeated Rakurai strikes is a bluff.

Bluenoser wrote:While I have read this entire thread and enjoyed a lot of the various spitballing within it, both the lighter and heavier variants, one thing I saw has bugged me that seems to have not been addressed. I get the reasons for why the OBS would not worked for the Gbaba on the ground given what we know about their patterns for destruction of planet being bombardment, not conquest. I also get that of course such ships that could resist the missiles the Terran Federation was using would also not have trouble with simple kinetic weapons or missiles created to protect the OBS from purely Terran level threats by the remnants of the Langhorn faction.

What I don't get though is why, with all the clearly well thought out consideration here is why no one pointed out what seemed to me to be the most obvious flaw of an outward pointing OBS, where does it get the energy? Isn't the whole point of a kinetic weapon the fact that it is the energy created by gravitational increase as it descends from orbit to the planet? So far as I understand from the series the OBS is purely kinetic in nature, there aren't warheads of any type being used. Sure the OBS has a defensive net to deal with anything short of a full scale warship as I understand it, but isn't it already established in textev that such a warship would be more than it could handle, and therefore would not be a threat to the Gbaba in any way even leaving aside the issue of the nature of the weapons of the OBS itself?

I'm sorry if I seem to be nitpicking here, it was just something that when I first read it in this thread my brain locked up on, I simply couldn't understand how an outward kinetic weapons system would have any possible real threat ability in the main armament, and the defensive capacity for the system was already shown to be only up to the large warship scale as I recall from the beginning of the series (which granted I haven't re-read for the some double digit time as of late). Did I miss something somewhere in the past? Is the OBS more than kinetic weaponry and instead actual missiles of some sort? That is where my confusion comes from here and why I've come off my usual lurking tendency (yes, I read here a lot more than I write), and I thank all in advance for their forebearance on my questioning on this point.

I think the reason no one has discussed this is that no one has seriously suggested that the OBS is intended to fire upon incoming ships. The subject simply has not come up. You are right--the orbital kinetic weapons cannot be used on incoming ships or other ships in orbit. But no one has said that it could.

SWM wrote:

Bluenoser wrote:While I have read this entire thread and enjoyed a lot of the various spitballing within it, both the lighter and heavier variants, one thing I saw has bugged me that seems to have not been addressed. I get the reasons for why the OBS would not worked for the Gbaba on the ground given what we know about their patterns for destruction of planet being bombardment, not conquest. I also get that of course such ships that could resist the missiles the Terran Federation was using would also not have trouble with simple kinetic weapons or missiles created to protect the OBS from purely Terran level threats by the remnants of the Langhorn faction.

What I don't get though is why, with all the clearly well thought out consideration here is why no one pointed out what seemed to me to be the most obvious flaw of an outward pointing OBS, where does it get the energy? Isn't the whole point of a kinetic weapon the fact that it is the energy created by gravitational increase as it descends from orbit to the planet? So far as I understand from the series the OBS is purely kinetic in nature, there aren't warheads of any type being used. Sure the OBS has a defensive net to deal with anything short of a full scale warship as I understand it, but isn't it already established in textev that such a warship would be more than it could handle, and therefore would not be a threat to the Gbaba in any way even leaving aside the issue of the nature of the weapons of the OBS itself?

I'm sorry if I seem to be nitpicking here, it was just something that when I first read it in this thread my brain locked up on, I simply couldn't understand how an outward kinetic weapons system would have any possible real threat ability in the main armament, and the defensive capacity for the system was already shown to be only up to the large warship scale as I recall from the beginning of the series (which granted I haven't re-read for the some double digit time as of late). Did I miss something somewhere in the past? Is the OBS more than kinetic weaponry and instead actual missiles of some sort? That is where my confusion comes from here and why I've come off my usual lurking tendency (yes, I read here a lot more than I write), and I thank all in advance for their forebearance on my questioning on this point.

I think the reason no one has discussed this is that no one has seriously suggested that the OBS is intended to fire upon incoming ships. The subject simply has not come up. You are right--the orbital kinetic weapons cannot be used on incoming ships or other ships in orbit. But no one has said that it could.

Would it not be possible to slingshot KEWs around 1 or more planets (although, as I recall, we don't know if there are more than 1 planets in this system, how come there's no mention of astronomy?) on a course which could intersect something in space? I do recognize that the object in space could simply move out of the way of an unpowered missile, but is it possible?

Keith_w wrote:Would it not be possible to slingshot KEWs around 1 or more planets (although, as I recall, we don't know if there are more than 1 planets in this system, how come there's no mention of astronomy?) on a course which could intersect something in space? I do recognize that the object in space could simply move out of the way of an unpowered missile, but is it possible?

I think you are misunderstanding how the KEW works. The KEW doesn't have rocket engines or anything like that. The kinetic energy of the weapon comes from falling. The gravitational potential energy is changed into kinetic energy. A weapon like that only works when dropped downward. It doesn't have rockets to fling it outward. There will be some kind of launcher to make the KEW go down instead of continue in orbit, but the launcher won't be very powerful. If you did launch the KEW outward, it would lose kinetic energy instead of gaining it. It would be useless as a weapon aimed outward.

SWM wrote:

Keith_w wrote:Would it not be possible to slingshot KEWs around 1 or more planets (although, as I recall, we don't know if there are more than 1 planets in this system, how come there's no mention of astronomy?) on a course which could intersect something in space? I do recognize that the object in space could simply move out of the way of an unpowered missile, but is it possible?

I think you are misunderstanding how the KEW works. The KEW doesn't have rocket engines or anything like that. The kinetic energy of the weapon comes from falling. The gravitational potential energy is changed into kinetic energy. A weapon like that only works when dropped downward. It doesn't have rockets to fling it outward. There will be some kind of launcher to make the KEW go down instead of continue in orbit, but the launcher won't be very powerful. If you did launch the KEW outward, it would lose kinetic energy instead of gaining it. It would be useless as a weapon aimed outward.

I have been aware of how kinetic energy weapons work since I first read about Mike* guiding rocks on their trajectories to earth. They transfer gravitational energy to kinetic energy. There is nothing in that description that says that that the energy has to be accumulated on a direct line between the source and the destination. Missions to other solar system objects accumulate speed by passing near other solar objects such as planets or even the sun and transferring gravitational energy to themselves as velocity. This also slows down the visited object very slightly. The energy available at the termination of a voyage, whether one inch, one foot, one hundred miles or one billion miles is, if I recall correctly, one half mass times velocity, so yes, I do know how kinetic energy weapons work. They move fast, they hit hard.

Edited to add a comma
*second edit. Mike is a reference the supercomputer and practical joker in Robert Anson Heinlein's "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress". TANSTAFL gospodin.

SWM wrote:

Keith_w wrote:Would it not be possible to slingshot KEWs around 1 or more planets (although, as I recall, we don't know if there are more than 1 planets in this system, how come there's no mention of astronomy?) on a course which could intersect something in space? I do recognize that the object in space could simply move out of the way of an unpowered missile, but is it possible?

I think you are misunderstanding how the KEW works. The KEW doesn't have rocket engines or anything like that. The kinetic energy of the weapon comes from falling. The gravitational potential energy is changed into kinetic energy. A weapon like that only works when dropped downward. It doesn't have rockets to fling it outward. There will be some kind of launcher to make the KEW go down instead of continue in orbit, but the launcher won't be very powerful. If you did launch the KEW outward, it would lose kinetic energy instead of gaining it. It would be useless as a weapon aimed outward.

The thing I struggle picturing in my own mind is how precisely they can be aimed. As Nynian tells it, the rakurai was accurate enough to score a direct hit on the SSK's first abbey. I suppose if it were just dropping a rock into the gravity well at exactly the right time, you could figure out mathematically exactly where and when the rock would have to be released. But the precision would have to be to so many significant figures that I've wondered if rocks have thrusters attached for course correction.

Don

n7axw wrote:The thing I struggle picturing in my own mind is how precisely they can be aimed. As Nynian tells it, the rakurai was accurate enough to score a direct hit on the SSK's first abbey. I suppose if it were just dropping a rock into the gravity well at exactly the right time, you could figure out mathematically exactly where and when the rock would have to be released. But the precision would have to be to so many significant figures that I've wondered if rocks have thrusters attached for course correction.

Don

It's not that difficult, the OBS accelerates the rock first to ~1 km/s (or 1 mile/s). At that speed there will be very little drift and it can be aimed quite precisely for the intended effect even though it doesn't hit dead center.

If you want even more accuracy just stick fins on it, no need for thrusters. The other option is to increase its initial velocity which means that the area of effect will be bigger.

Joat42 wrote:

n7axw wrote:The thing I struggle picturing in my own mind is how precisely they can be aimed. As Nynian tells it, the rakurai was accurate enough to score a direct hit on the SSK's first abbey. I suppose if it were just dropping a rock into the gravity well at exactly the right time, you could figure out mathematically exactly where and when the rock would have to be released. But the precision would have to be to so many significant figures that I've wondered if rocks have thrusters attached for course correction.

Don

It's not that difficult, the OBS accelerates the rock first to ~1 km/s (or 1 mile/s). At that speed there will be very little drift and it can be aimed quite precisely for the intended effect even though it doesn't hit dead center.

If you want even more accuracy just stick fins on it, no need for thrusters. The other option is to increase its initial velocity which means that the area of effect will be bigger.

Why not put thrusters on them? This will allow trajectory adjustments while in motion. If it was good enough for Mike Holmes, it's good enough for Safehold!