HQ Snippet #21 3-27-15

PeterZ wrote:All the demands from the EoC/CoC must be consistent with what the Writ allows the CoGA. Demanding the CoGA be prohibited from something that the Writ already asserts is the CoGA's responsibility is a non-starter. That would guarantee the CoC be viewed as acting to support the Dark.

Your pre-conditions will fail. At a minimum, the CoC will require the end of the Punishment of Schuler and that all people be allowed to follow their own conscience as far as religion goes. Those are inconsistent with the Writ.

Note that I'm not saying that a country could choose to exile people for not following the CoGA, nor that the CoGA could expel or shun people who didn't follow the original Writ, but killing those "heretics" would be contrary to what the CoC would accept.

Further, the CoC is adamant about the separation of secular and religious responsibilities. That may not be explicit in the Writ, but it certainly is implicit. And while the original writ specified that countries selected their own Archbishops, the change was so buried that only church scholars would know that was ever the case.

-- Bob G

I don't disagree with your goals, Don. I just don't believe the Reformist agree with them. Outside of Old Charis most allied citizens would choose reforming the CoGA rather than completely gutting it as you would call for. You and I wouldn't see it as gutting, but loyalists and reformists would.

n7axw wrote:Hi PeterZ,

Several points here.

First if all, I have no objection to someone who wants to revere the archangels providing no one else is coerced into doing the same.

Secondly, one of the core issues here is the corruption of the senior clergy which gave rise to and enabled the G-4 and its bad behavior. I see no way to negotiate with that. The Council of Vicars should be done away with, or failing that be replaced by better people. As for the COGA faithful, they must be confronted with the reality of what their church has become along with being brought face to face with the crminality of its actions. If some believe that the victors "are of the dark" for bringing about that confrontation, so be it. The system as it is presently constituted must not be left in place.

Thirdly the COGA's power to enforce the proscriptions must be abolished. I understand that the proscriptions themselves cannot be made to instantly disappear. But if they are not enforced, their power over peoples' minds will start to fade. The ties on the straightjacket COGA has had on Safehold need to be loosened. I well understand that the straightjacket cannot be abruptly torn away, but if the ties are loosened, it will eventually be discarded.

Finally, remember that the foundation upon which the COGA is built is a fraud. That fraud should not be enabled, but exposed for what it is at the earliest moment it can be prudently done.

None of this is served by anything other than a clean cut alliance victory. In fact I don't think that Zion itself should be left in COGA hands. It should become internationally controlled neutral ground that is a part of the religious/cultural heritage of all of Safehold.

Don

I am sure most Imperial citizens would agree to end the Punishment of Schuler. That book was an after thought to Langhorne's original Writ, afterall. One could well argue that the Writ envisioned by Langehorne never encompassed the barbarity contained the Book of Schuler.

Outside the Temple Lands there is already a technical separation between the secular and religious authorities. The CoGA's Inquisition as currently constituted scares people into acquiescing to CoGA demands. Get rid of the Book of Schuler and separate the Inquisition into multiple orders will go a long way to defanging the CoGA.

BobG wrote:

PeterZ wrote:All the demands from the EoC/CoC must be consistent with what the Writ allows the CoGA. Demanding the CoGA be prohibited from something that the Writ already asserts is the CoGA's responsibility is a non-starter. That would guarantee the CoC be viewed as acting to support the Dark.

Your pre-conditions will fail. At a minimum, the CoC will require the end of the Punishment of Schuler and that all people be allowed to follow their own conscience as far as religion goes. Those are inconsistent with the Writ.

Note that I'm not saying that a country could choose to exile people for not following the CoGA, nor that the CoGA could expel or shun people who didn't follow the original Writ, but killing those "heretics" would be contrary to what the CoC would accept.

Further, the CoC is adamant about the separation of secular and religious responsibilities. That may not be explicit in the Writ, but it certainly is implicit. And while the original writ specified that countries selected their own Archbishops, the change was so buried that only church scholars would know that was ever the case.

-- Bob G

PeterZ wrote:I don't disagree with your goals, Don. I just don't believe the Reformist agree with them. Outside of Old Charis most allied citizens would choose reforming the CoGA rather than completely gutting it as you would call for. You and I wouldn't see it as gutting, but loyalists and reformists would.

n7axw wrote:Hi PeterZ,

Several points here.

First if all, I have no objection to someone who wants to revere the archangels providing no one else is coerced into doing the same.

Secondly, one of the core issues here is the corruption of the senior clergy which gave rise to and enabled the G-4 and its bad behavior. I see no way to negotiate with that. The Council of Vicars should be done away with, or failing that be replaced by better people. As for the COGA faithful, they must be confronted with the reality of what their church has become along with being brought face to face with the crminality of its actions. If some believe that the victors "are of the dark" for bringing about that confrontation, so be it. The system as it is presently constituted must not be left in place.

Thirdly the COGA's power to enforce the proscriptions must be abolished. I understand that the proscriptions themselves cannot be made to instantly disappear. But if they are not enforced, their power over peoples' minds will start to fade. The ties on the straightjacket COGA has had on Safehold need to be loosened. I well understand that the straightjacket cannot be abruptly torn away, but if the ties are loosened, it will eventually be discarded.

Finally, remember that the foundation upon which the COGA is built is a fraud. That fraud should not be enabled, but exposed for what it is at the earliest moment it can be prudently done.

None of this is served by anything other than a clean cut alliance victory. In fact I don't think that Zion itself should be left in COGA hands. It should become internationally controlled neutral ground that is a part of the religious/cultural heritage of all of Safehold.

Don

Yes. My proposal does gut the COGA as presently constituted at its upper levels. I am not interested in accomodating the Reformists. I am interested in seeing to it that the COGA is thoroughly defanged as a threat to any one and that in its present form, it is discredited as completely as possible. Let the Reformists pick up the pieces and reconstitute the COGA in a servant role rather than as lords of creation. Let it become a true church supported by the voluntary giving of its members rather than mandatory tithes which are in reality not tithes at all, but taxes. If it can't do that, it doesn't deserve to survive in any form at all.

Don

I don't want to re-hash all the arguments in the thread so far, but I do want to say that it is the CoGA that is backed into a corner as far as peace terms go, not the Empire and Church of Charis.

The CoGA has declared Holy War! By doing so, it has asserted that the Empire of Charis are the willing allies of Shan-Wei herself. In pursuit of the Holy War, it has sponsored many acts of terrorism in Charis, Emerald and Corisande, it has extended the Holy War to Siddmark by secretly fomenting a particularly bloody civil war and then invading in support of the rebels, and it has subjected Charisian and Siddmarkian soldiers to the full rigor of the Punishment do Schuler for no other reason than that they were fighting for the "wrong" side.

By definition a Holy War is a war to the utter destruction of one side or the other. The only way the CoGA can offer peace terms to end the Holy War is to publicly and officially admit it was a mistake to start it in the first place. Doing that destroys the CoGA's claim of infallibility, destroys it's moral authority to remain sole arbiter of God's will, forces it to acknowledge that nothing the Charisian's have done up to that point constitute heresy or a violation of the Proscriptions and forces it to accept a permanent schism. Anything less requires them to continue the Holy War because The Church cannot compromise with evil.

If peace is achieved under those terms, either because Clyntahn is dead and Duchairn loses the will for a war of extermination or because the CoGA has been defeated, then the only way the CoGA could condemn the Church of Charis anew wold be if the CoC adopted what even the most ardent reformer saw as clear and unequivocal heresies. Or if the Empire of Charis started committing equally clear and unequivocal violations of the Proscriptions.

Until the "Reveal", Charis will still need to abide by the proscriptions but it will no longer have any limits on promoting innovation within the proscriptions. It will also be free (or at least freer) to support scientific research. And Archbishop Maikel's vision of parishioners deciding for themselves what God expects of them will gain influence even in among those that still adhere to the CoGA.

The idea that Charis (and Siddmark) could somehow be forced (short of a military defeat in which case, the CoGA will exterminate them) to accept peace terms that don't explicitly acknowledge their right to continue on their current path is silly.

Here is an awesome demand, reperations and pensions for all the church victime, so all soldiers and military harmed by the conflict, and their dependants, as well as the civilians. Make the church spend what money it has left to restore the parts of the republic harmed by the S.o.S. offensive.
THe church is paying some of it military pensions and compensation for the war effort so why not their victims as well.

The church in an effort to raise money, sold its holding in the empire and possibly the republic at a discount. What if they haveto arrage for the titles to be transfered to the local church. So they would loose assets or pay their new owners.

THe church also owed the rpublic and their banks loan repayments, those have to properly repaid.
The empire and republic both owed loan repayments, so those will be forgiven, or simply transfered.

They are reasonable demands, and ensures the church has little or no influence in those lands, and draining what funds they have left.

The thing is the chuch is in such bad states ,that these minor and resonable requests would be hard to not accept, yet could cripple them. The church is already in financial diffficulties, being drained of more cash would ensure tehy would less be able to set things in motions, and their usual methods of control over a kingdom would be gone for ever in the empire and the republic.

Also, i bet they will ask that all members of the church shown to have been criminal in nature to be punished, so all that evidence they have gathered, could finally be used to clean up the church.

On the possibility of a truce favorable to the Church

My own thought is that terms will be set by Charis, that is to say Merlin, Cayleb, Sharleyan, and Nahrmahn, not Maikel, not the inner circle, those four. The allies are going to follow.
Merlin has a sense of history and of what will happen if Charis allows an Ashes of Victory settlement. (and if he hasn't read that tome on diplomatic failure-Nahrmahn certainly has ) I do not believe either Cayleb or Sharley are inclined to such an agreement.
But the main reason they will get what they want is our ghost in the machine. Nahrmahn Baytz was an expert at the Great Game when he was alive, now that he's had time to review mankind's history..... He'll figure it out.
And throw in the surveillance capabilities he enjoys.
The Church is toast(with PB and J.)

looksbeforeheleaps wrote:snip
By definition a Holy War is a war to the utter destruction of one side or the other. The only way the CoGA can offer peace terms to end the Holy War is to publicly and officially admit it was a mistake to start it in the first place. Doing that destroys the CoGA's claim of infallibility, destroys it's moral authority to remain sole arbiter of God's will, forces it to acknowledge that nothing the Charisian's have done up to that point constitute heresy or a violation of the Proscriptions and forces it to accept a permanent schism. Anything less requires them to continue the Holy War because The Church cannot compromise with evil.

snip.

Indeed accepting the jihad was a mistake will mean the CoGA acted in error. That will lose credibility for the CoGA and a good deal of moral authority. However, unless the CoGA accepts that they made a mistake, the post war analysis of the CoGA papers will prove they knew Charis hadn't committed heresies. That will destroy all their credibility and moral authority.

Once Clyntahn is executed, the CoGA will have a chance to do the right thing before they are compelled to. If they don't do the right thing and admit their error, Don's wish will come to pass (so long as the OBS doesn't get triggered by the armies marching on Zion and there isn't another doomsday switch in the Temple to bring back the Returners early). I don't doubt for an instant that Duchairn knows this.

PeterZ wrote:
Indeed accepting the jihad was a mistake will mean the CoGA acted in error. That will lose credibility for the CoGA and a good deal of moral authority. However, unless the CoGA accepts that they made a mistake, the post war analysis of the CoGA papers will prove they knew Charis hadn't committed heresies. That will destroy all their credibility and moral authority.

Once Clyntahn is executed, the CoGA will have a chance to do the right thing before they are compelled to. If they don't do the right thing and admit their error, Don's wish will come to pass (so long as the OBS doesn't get triggered by the armies marching on Zion and there isn't another doomsday switch in the Temple to bring back the Returners early). I don't doubt for an instant that Duchairn knows this.

OK, I'm trying to second-guess RFC again. It's a hopeless task, I know, but it's great fun . . .

If someone (metaphorically) doesn't get behind Clyntahn with a dagger before his roof completely falls in, my reading of his character is that NO WAY will he be prepared to lie down and go quietly. There are all sorts of possible scenarios, but one of them is that he goes down into the Temple basement and puts his hands into the impressions on top of the device down there. I know he can't use it properly because the equipment he needs to do that is in Paityr Wylsynn's hands, but it's possible that something might happen! It's impossible, I know, but wouldn't it be lovely if the ghost of Shan Wei appeared and tore him a new one? Oh well, I can dream!

PeterZ wrote:

looksbeforeheleaps wrote:snip
By definition a Holy War is a war to the utter destruction of one side or the other. The only way the CoGA can offer peace terms to end the Holy War is to publicly and officially admit it was a mistake to start it in the first place. Doing that destroys the CoGA's claim of infallibility, destroys it's moral authority to remain sole arbiter of God's will, forces it to acknowledge that nothing the Charisian's have done up to that point constitute heresy or a violation of the Proscriptions and forces it to accept a permanent schism. Anything less requires them to continue the Holy War because The Church cannot compromise with evil.

snip.

Indeed accepting the jihad was a mistake will mean the CoGA acted in error. That will lose credibility for the CoGA and a good deal of moral authority. However, unless the CoGA accepts that they made a mistake, the post war analysis of the CoGA papers will prove they knew Charis hadn't committed heresies. That will destroy all their credibility and moral authority.

Once Clyntahn is executed, the CoGA will have a chance to do the right thing before they are compelled to. If they don't do the right thing and admit their error, Don's wish will come to pass (so long as the OBS doesn't get triggered by the armies marching on Zion and there isn't another doomsday switch in the Temple to bring back the Returners early). I don't doubt for an instant that Duchairn knows this.

Hi PeterZ,

Could you clarify the last paragraph here a bit? I'm unsure just what it is that Duchairn knows...

Don