CLAC's in Home Fleet

Sigs,

The 1920 PD number of CLACs does not include the Python Lump. The RMN did triple its CLACs between 1920 and 1922.

SWM wrote:Sigs,

The 1920 PD number of CLACs does not include the Python Lump. The RMN did triple its CLACs between 1920 and 1922.

The Python Lump... Not calling you into question, here, SWM, but you lost me... Can you clue me in what that is and where it is found?

Thanks much,

Don

n7axw wrote:

SWM wrote:Sigs,

The 1920 PD number of CLACs does not include the Python Lump. The RMN did triple its CLACs between 1920 and 1922.

The Python Lump... Not calling you into question, here, SWM, but you lost me... Can you clue me in what that is and where it is found?

Thanks much,

Don

A search for 'python lump' reveals exactly one result - a statement by Thomas Caparelli in reference to Andermani wallers being refitted with Keyhole 2.

It may mean other things here on the forums.

munroburton wrote:It may mean other things here on the forums.

Generally, it's a reference to the mind-bogglingly huge number of warships laid down by Manticore immediately after the start of 2nd Havenite War, or more specifically the ~200 SD(P)s therein (the last of which were completed just prior to Oyster Bay).

drothgery wrote:

munroburton wrote:It may mean other things here on the forums.

Generally, it's a reference to the mind-bogglingly huge number of warships laid down by Manticore immediately after the start of 2nd Havenite War, or more specifically the ~200 SD(P)s therein (the last of which were completed just prior to Oyster Bay).

200SDP
~100 CLAC
~100BC
~150 CA
200CL/DD
???LAC


Did in 2 years more than the entire 1st Havenite war over 10+ years.

Relax wrote:Did in 2 years more than the entire 1st Havenite war over 10+ years.

Though if the 'Buttercup Lump' (my terminology) had all been finished on schedule, it would have been of similar scale (all the new-tech ships used in Buttercup + every SD(P) and carrier completed in the intrawar era + every ship that High Ridge halted construction of + anything Grayson finished building during the truce that was started before then. Which was probably >150 SD(P)s, some number of old-style wallers, and various smaller ships.

Relax wrote:200SDP
~100 CLAC
~100BC
~150 CA
200CL/DD
???LAC


Did in 2 years more than the entire 1st Havenite war over 10+ years.

Um, in the first war they were building 5+ SDs a month 2 years in if I remember the passage from FiE correctly. Times eight years that comes out to 480 SDs alone.

Fun part is that losses in the first war period were much higher. Which all(or mostly) happened of screen. Think about it a bit. Operation Icarus IIRC resulted in the loss of something like 40-60 SDs for the RMN and about the same number BBs alone for the RHN.

I did try to total up the losses from just that one operation and it is quite impressive. Much less all the others that White Haven suffered. In the following passage I referenced above they lost 26 SDs and DNs in the first 9 months (if I am inferring the time correctly). People on the forum really lose a lot of context of the losses just looking at the end numbers.

FiE Chapter 1 wrote:“In the war’s first six months,” he said, “Manticore captured nineteen Havenite star systems, including two major fleet bases. Their total capital ship losses during that time were two superdreadnoughts and five dreadnoughts, against which they destroyed forty Havenite ships of the wall. They also added thirty-one capital ships to their own order of battle—twenty-six captured units, exclusive of the eleven Admiral White Haven gave us after Third Yeltsin, and five more from new construction. That put them within roughly ninety percent of the Peeps’ remaining ships of the wall, and they had the advantage of the initiative, not to mention the edge the People’s Navy’s confusion and shattered morale gave them.

“In the last three months, however, the RMN’s captured only two systems and lost nineteen capital ships doing it—including the ten they lost at Nightingale, where they didn’t take the system. The Peeps are still taking heavier losses, but remember that they have all those battleships. They may be too small for proper ships of the wall, but they provide a rear area coverage the Manties can’t match without diverting dreadnoughts or superdreadnoughts, which frees a higher percentage of the Peeps’ ships of the wall for front-line use. Put simply, the Peeps still have more ships to lose than Manticore does, and the war is slowing down, Your Grace. Peep resistance is stiffening, and the Manties are transferring more and more of their own strength to the front in an effort to hang onto their momentum.”

Have fun,
T2M

HoS gives us total build numbers for ships... 480 SDs

FIE number was including Grayson/Talbott

HoS built + Grendelsbane + ~30Invictus in Manticore - 1905 = Total built/started 1st Havenite war

1905
186 SD
121 DN

HoS Built: 378 SD 144DN (Does not include invictus)
1st Havenite war 23DN 192SD

Grendelslbane out of memory: Roughly 100SD destroyed

So roughly Total built 1st Havenite war 23DN and ~300SD over 10 years. Or roughly 30-35/year. 3/month

Oh yea and they lost 1/3 of their ship building infrastructure at Grendelsbane so building rates should have been lower in 2nd Havenite war... Assuming they were really actually, you know "fighting for their lives" in the 1st Havenite war. Instead their build rates tripled with less infrastructure present to build with. So, their build rates actually increased more closer to 10X as they had to build the building slips first AND replace all the lost ship building capacity from Grendelsbane.

Either A) They were not really fighting in the 1st Havenite war, or B) DW makes up whatever he wishes for plot.

I go with B)

Relax wrote:...snip...
Either A) They were not really fighting in the 1st Havenite war, or B) DW makes up whatever he wishes for plot.

I go with B)

Actually I did screw up a little with the numbers. I included those built both in Talbot and Grayson.

I am not going to swear to the HoS numbers as BU9 too are human though they do the best they can. So did HoS build numbers include the ones produced in Talbot? <shrug>

Another thing to take into consideration is how did they accomplish the post Operation Thunderbolt build rate. A lot of that was the "Grayson Style" building slips.

Not really disputing numbers but did the US fight WW1 (once it entered it) compare what was done in WW2. What was the difference(a real rough analogy that fails all over the place).

What the population will put up with is a deciding factor. Also consider that if IIRC they were seriously considering conscription in the first war and they didn't in the second.

So I would go with (c) they were doing as much as is required and allowed by the population(really badly worded limits of my communication capabilities).

As in both cases the population thought they were doing everything to win the war. Actually there is a severe case of fear in the second one that they would fail. After 1905 not so much in the first war. Until Operation Icarus to a lesser extent. Also the "Loyal" Opposition was doing everything it could to undermine the government. Which has a significant affect.

There are different levels of national commitment that I really don't think you are allowing for while people are still fighting at what they feel is an existence war. It is not a black and white world as much as I would wish it to be.

Have fun,
T2M

PS Never done it but also the American Civil War might also be another case of fighting for existence and compare the North and South numbers. Just off the cuff based on the monetary valuations the North wasn't. Yet they were fighting to percieved utmost(?). <shrug>

PPS During they the first war they were fighting for the long haul. Massive amounts of effort was devoted to expanding the Space Stations(no clue as to the cost to make a space station triple in size). The second one not so much. As is evidence by slap dash building slips.

PPPS Damn I hope this makes some kind of sense.

Relax wrote:HoS gives us total build numbers for ships... 480 SDs

FIE number was including Grayson/Talbott

HoS built + Grendelsbane + ~30Invictus in Manticore - 1905 = Total built/started 1st Havenite war

1905
186 SD
121 DN

HoS Built: 378 SD 144DN (Does not include invictus)
1st Havenite war 23DN 192SD

Grendelslbane out of memory: Roughly 100SD destroyed

So roughly Total built 1st Havenite war 23DN and ~300SD over 10 years. Or roughly 30-35/year. 3/month

Oh yea and they lost 1/3 of their ship building infrastructure at Grendelsbane so building rates should have been lower in 2nd Havenite war... Assuming they were really actually, you know "fighting for their lives" in the 1st Havenite war. Instead their build rates tripled with less infrastructure present to build with. So, their build rates actually increased more closer to 10X as they had to build the building slips first AND replace all the lost ship building capacity from Grendelsbane.

Either A) They were not really fighting in the 1st Havenite war, or B) DW makes up whatever he wishes for plot.

I go with B)

Small nit, I'd include the 48 CLACs built in Manty yards prior to 1920 in your count, since for all intents and purposes they took up a DN sized slip. Grendlesbane's 73 SD and 19 CLACS (92 SD/DN ships) were all only months from completion when halted. Due to the low # of completed Medusas (63) It appears that 12 Invicti were completed prior to the 1st war's end, despite what Honor's internal monologue in WoH said.

So I'd up that build by about 65 ships, or roughly .5 ships per month for 10 years...

But you are correct, unless Manticore discovered something breathtakingly new in the field of construction in the last few months of the 1st war, the plot was doing some of the driving.