HQ Snippet #21 3-27-15

Don,

Don't conflate the Church's moral authority for that of the G4. In all my arguments I have emphasized Clyntahn being blamed for the jihad. Think about what the opposing clerics call themselves...Reformists. They don't want to destroy the CoGA. Just like the Sisters of St. Khody, the want to reform the CoGA. Removing the ungodly from power is just a start.

The loyalists will accept reform if the CoGA accepts reformation. The CoC and reformists must present arguments that persuade the CoGA. That is most likely done before the EoC conquers the jihadis militarily.

So the blame for the jihad falls on human corruption and is repaired by a faithful son of God. Clyntahn is removed and a Godly man takes over. That godly man offers to negotiate peace. How can the Allies ever reject that peace without confirming that they serve the Dark in the eyes of loyalists? That confirmation is only emohasized with a military defeat. God is letting the Dark temper the souls of his children just as He used the Dark to temper the souls of mankind in the War of the Fallen.

I know you and many others disagree with ne, Don. I just don't see how Duchairn can risk military defeat when that would make reunification nearly impossible? He either conquers Charis and slowly integrates them back into the CoGA over time or negotiates some autonomy for the CoC and true CoGA reform. A military defeat means Duchairn has failed again to heal his Church. I don't believe he can let that happen.

n7axw wrote:
It is certainly true that winning militarily over the COGA does not destroy the church's legitimacy. But the COGA can destroy its own legitimacy. And it has been working hard on that.

But even after the power of the COGA is crushed, its beliefs will live on in the minds in a majority of Safehold's people. But it's moral authority will have been shattered, first by the corruption of the vicars and then by the brutality of the inquisition when knowledge of the death camps becomes widely known. Even cleaning out the corrupt vicars and getting a fresh group of better people can't change that. There will always be that taint coloring perceptions of the COGA that will prevent it from ever being fully trusted the way it was before the attack on Charis and the Sword of Schuler.

Perhaps Nahrman puts it best,

"The one thing in the entire world that the Church can't afford to lose is its moral authority as God's voice, His steward among His people, Trahvys." His voice was very, very soft. "That's been the true basis for the world's unity--and the Church's power--since the day of creation itself. But now the Group of Four has just thrown that away, as if it were so unimportant, so trivial, that it wasn't worth so much as a second thought. Only they were wrong. It wasn't unimportant; it was the only thing that could have saved them. Now it's gone. And that, Trahvys--that--is something they will never, ever be able to get back again." BSRA, Year of God 892, Section VI.

Don

PeterZ wrote:...I just don't see how Duchairn can risk military defeat when that would make reunification nearly impossible? ...

Reunification is already nearly impossible; as impossible as Catholics and Protestants reforming into a single Church.

Military defeat or negotiated peace, the Church on Safehold is permanently sundered as surely as Christianity was permanently sundered (again) as soon as Martin Luther nailed his Theses on that church door. The dichotomy of "a personal contract with God" versus "Central Authority in all things" is irreconcilable.

anwi wrote:

Randomiser wrote:We are headed to the Shrine not the Abbey, so there should be fewer sisters around to try Nynian's strategy on for a first go. The Abbey is 60 miles west and, interestingly, both are all but cut off from contact with the rest of the world for the next 2 or 3 months. I'm interested to see what she has in mind as the text strongly suggests she doesn't intend to tell them the whole truth. (might be wrong).

I read it differently. The 60 miles is a reference to the distance between a river and the abbey. The cave of Kohdy's tomb is probably not on the grounds of the abbey, but in the vicinity (in the mountains east of the abbey). And the standard way to the cave goes through the abbey.
As to what Aivah's up to: very hard to tell. Indeed, we don't know whether they are headed to the abbey or to the cave. My money would be on the cave. But I'm quite sure that they will visit the abbey on the trip.

I can't see that at all, ANWI. From the Snippet

So presumably the only way the present day Church could spot the Tomb of Saint Khody would be for someone to literally stumble over it on the ground, and that made the Abbey of the Snows, sixty-odd miles to the west on the Stone Shadow River, the Tomb’s true protection.

The Abbey is on the river and is '60-odd miles to the west'. Of where? Of the tomb. (and their current location, reading most naturally).

PeterZ wrote:Don,

Don't conflate the Church's moral authority for that of the G4. In all my arguments I have emphasized Clyntahn being blamed for the jihad. Think about what the opposing clerics call themselves...Reformists. They don't want to destroy the CoGA. Just like the Sisters of St. Khody, the want to reform the CoGA. Removing the ungodly from power is just a start.

The loyalists will accept reform if the CoGA accepts reformation. The CoC and reformists must present arguments that persuade the CoGA. That is most likely done before the EoC conquers the jihadis militarily.

So the blame for the jihad falls on human corruption and is repaired by a faithful son of God. Clyntahn is removed and a Godly man takes over. That godly man offers to negotiate peace. How can the Allies ever reject that peace without confirming that they serve the Dark in the eyes of loyalists? That confirmation is only emohasized with a military defeat. God is letting the Dark temper the souls of his children just as He used the Dark to temper the souls of mankind in the War of the Fallen.

I know you and many others disagree with ne, Don. I just don't see how Duchairn can risk military defeat when that would make reunification nearly impossible? He either conquers Charis and slowly integrates them back into the CoGA over time or negotiates some autonomy for the CoC and true CoGA reform. A military defeat means Duchairn has failed again to heal his Church. I don't believe he can let that happen.

Peter, it isn't Don who suggests the War has cost the CoGA its moral authority it's Nahrman (and hence RFC, most probably)

I think you swing back and forward between assuming the Safeholdians are naive and sophisticated as it suits your argument. You assume they see things strictly in black and white sometimes, 'if the EoC win the war outright they must be serving the dark', but sometimes assume they easily detect considerable grey areas, 'the war is the fault of the GoF not the CoGA'. In fact the text shows that many ordinary CoGA Safehold people are sickened by the things the church is doing and making them do in this war. Some of them realise the church hierarchy is letting itself be used by the GoF just to save its own skin, which in itself destroys its moral authority. There are naive Safeholders, but the more naive they are the more they believe all the instructions come from the CoGA itself, after all, the Grand Vicar proclaimed the Jihad from Langhorne's throne. They, plus the Inquisition, will make it impossible for Duchairn to hold a rump CoGA together if he tries to do a deal with the Heretics.

Duchairn is not a 'godly man', he is a mass murderer who helps old ladies across the road and gives food parcels to little orphan children. He may now be a mass murderer with moral qualms, but we have yet to see how much of that is repentance and how much is just remorse because the original plans didn't work out, they are now getting whupped and Clyntahn keeps digging them deeper into the hole. If Clyntahn and the cruelty were gone and the Church were somehow winning, I'm not at all convinced Duchairn would conclude a peace that allowed the CoC to continue.

Of course the CoGA is going to persist beyond this war and of course it needs reformed, but by far the safest, and most likely way to do that is after a thorough military victory on the Allies part. Let's face it, even 'now' it would be real hard to convince anyone with two brain cells to rub together that any peace offer on the CoGA's part wasn't made because they were losing the war. Besides,'It was all that bad man's fault and the rest of us are good people, really.', is an impossible 'sell'; too many people have started looking at the church with different eyes. (Which brings us back to Nahrman's comment.)

Merlin fully expects that the next wars, over the Great Reveal and the consequent religious issues, are going to be even nastier and bloodier than this one. Lasting peace isn't coming for quite a while, absent a real surprise of some kind from RFC.

Randomiser wrote:Duchairn is not a 'godly man', he is a mass murderer who helps old ladies across the road and gives food parcels to little orphan children. He may now be a mass murderer with moral qualms, but we have yet to see how much of that is repentance and how much is just remorse because the original plans didn't work out, they are now getting whupped and Clyntahn keeps digging them deeper into the hole. If Clyntahn and the cruelty were gone and the Church were somehow winning, I'm not at all convinced Duchairn would conclude a peace that allowed the CoC to continue.

I think Duchairn was a classic Temple politician who realized only after the Church had committed Safehold to religious war that that was just what they were doing and how bad that would be - win or lose. Unlike Clyntahn, he knows that's a bad thing; unlike Magwair and definitely unlike Trynair, he's not taking it as an extension of business-as-usual. But his only way out - in service to his principles, the ones he realized too late actually apply - is through to "victory", as he sees it.

I do think he's still in denial. He doesn't think that a fractured Church is acceptable, but nothing but a fractured Church would be anything but a monster now. The Church he serves - the ideal he cares about, anyway - can't be re-imposed in blood and terror, and there's no other way it would return to Siddarmark or the Out Islands now. If he accepted that, he may have to accept that all the work he's done trying to fight through to "victory" is again going along with an abomination.

But he's cursed with too much thought and imagination and using it when it's to be too late to do enough good with it. If he figures out that the unity of the Church on Safehold is no longer compatible with the virtue of that Church - and doesn't make a suicidal run on Clyntahn so he can die and end this personal and world hell - maybe, just maybe, he can finally get ahead and be a part of a full solution that's still a real possibility.

Would it ever make him a Godly man? I don't know. But really, a man who can do a job that desperately needs doing may be better.

Of course the CoGA is going to persist beyond this war and of course it needs reformed, but by far the safest, and most likely way to do that is after a thorough military victory on the Allies part. Let's face it, even 'now' it would be real hard to convince anyone with two brain cells to rub together that any peace offer on the CoGA's part wasn't made because they were losing the war. Besides,'It was all that bad man's fault and the rest of us are good people, really.', is an impossible 'sell'; too many people have started looking at the church with different eyes. (Which brings us back to Nahrman's comment.)

Ya, I think the Church is going to need the CoC and its secular forces to stomp the worst parts of it to bits before the better parts of it can ever be safe. The careful, conditional surrender will invite a stab-in-the-back, never-really-defeated narrative just like in Germany between the world wars. An un-generous, imposed "peace" settlement may be about as bad. And even threading that needle perfectly will leave a whole lot of upheaval left to happen, painfully.

Part of my perspective here is experiential. I've learned the hard way, as a clergyman, that misbehavior on the part of clergy tars the reputation of the entire church. Further, it tars my reputation and makes it more difficult for me to do my job.

What has happened on Safehold is far worse, not just with the G-4, but going all the way back to Langhorne.

Don

n7axw wrote:Part of my perspective here is experiential. I've learned the hard way, as a clergyman, that misbehavior on the part of clergy tars the reputation of the entire church. Further, it tars my reputation and makes it more difficult for me to do my job.

What has happened on Safehold is far worse, not just with the G-4, but going all the way back to Langhorne.

Don

Even if the CoGA can be reformed, it still needs to be overthrown completely as otherwise the Langhorne inspired "Prohibitions" will remain.
Although there is good in "Holy Writ" as has been pointed out in textev, the fundamental supports of CoGA are utterly against any form of "modern technology" with the emphasised trio of "muscle, wind and water" power ONLY

Randomiser wrote:Peter, it isn't Don who suggests the War has cost the CoGA its moral authority it's Nahrman (and hence RFC, most probably)

I think you swing back and forward between assuming the Safeholdians are naive and sophisticated as it suits your argument. You assume they see things strictly in black and white sometimes, 'if the EoC win the war outright they must be serving the dark', but sometimes assume they easily detect considerable grey areas, 'the war is the fault of the GoF not the CoGA'. In fact the text shows that many ordinary CoGA Safehold people are sickened by the things the church is doing and making them do in this war. Some of them realise the church hierarchy is letting itself be used by the GoF just to save its own skin, which in itself destroys its moral authority. There are naive Safeholders, but the more naive they are the more they believe all the instructions come from the CoGA itself, after all, the Grand Vicar proclaimed the Jihad from Langhorne's throne. They, plus the Inquisition, will make it impossible for Duchairn to hold a rump CoGA together if he tries to do a deal with the Heretics.

Duchairn is not a 'godly man', he is a mass murderer who helps old ladies across the road and gives food parcels to little orphan children. He may now be a mass murderer with moral qualms, but we have yet to see how much of that is repentance and how much is just remorse because the original plans didn't work out, they are now getting whupped and Clyntahn keeps digging them deeper into the hole. If Clyntahn and the cruelty were gone and the Church were somehow winning, I'm not at all convinced Duchairn would conclude a peace that allowed the CoC to continue.

Of course the CoGA is going to persist beyond this war and of course it needs reformed, but by far the safest, and most likely way to do that is after a thorough military victory on the Allies part. Let's face it, even 'now' it would be real hard to convince anyone with two brain cells to rub together that any peace offer on the CoGA's part wasn't made because they were losing the war. Besides,'It was all that bad man's fault and the rest of us are good people, really.', is an impossible 'sell'; too many people have started looking at the church with different eyes. (Which brings us back to Nahrman's comment.)

Merlin fully expects that the next wars, over the Great Reveal and the consequent religious issues, are going to be even nastier and bloodier than this one. Lasting peace isn't coming for quite a while, absent a real surprise of some kind from RFC.

Jeff,

I am not restating my entire argument with each post. Let us review that argument.

Safehold has a monolithic religious, moral, legal and natural philosophy paradigm derived from the Writ. It is as stated in this snippet a seamless description of God's will.

God created EVERYTHING and left proof of this fact for every Safeholdian to recognize.

God, through His archangels, left behind His will for mankind found in the Writ.

He created the Church to guide mankind in the proper way of life that would please Him.

To a Safeholdian every aspect of life is touched by God. Skills passed from father to son since Creation were first given to man by the archangels. Blessings and curse are littered in every Safehodlians life that remind them that the world around them is the product of the active will of God and His archangels fighting the active malice of the Dark. This last sentence is worth repeating.

Every aspect of existence on Safehold is made possible by the active will of God and His archangels fighting the active malice of the Dark. As an example, microorganisms are demons set loose by Shan-wei to harm mankind but are thwarted by Hasting's(?) blessings. This belief is universally held outside of the St. Zherneau Inner Circle. There is no choice for Safeholdians but to accept those rules as facts of life, because as Merlin mused in this snippet the proof of God's existence is unassailable. His existence and His will are fact. Disobeying God is placing the souls of everyone an individual loves at risk. This isn't part of some nuanced theology that might be taught but part of the bedrock foundation of the Safeholdian belief structure and is at the very heart of the CoGA's power.

To these people Clyntahn is terrifying and Duchairn is a godly man, but both are acting within the scope of the CoGA authority as given by God. Clyntahn has the authority to do what he does, but is corrupt and uses that power for impure motives. Duchairn is viewed as using his authority to help God's children. Recall Duchairn has not visibly supported Clyntahn's purge of the Vicarate. If the CoGA cleanses itself as it has done numerous times since Creation, that is part of God's plan. If the CoGA is defeated and dictated to by outside forces, how else is that described than a victory by the Dark? If the loyalist priests preach that the schism will not be healed. If many priests do not preach that, those that do will claim coercion. If those priests are removed from office, coercion is proved. If those priests are not removed, the rupture remains.

Any arguments made to assert that God has removed his authority from the CoGA must be made within the context of the Writ. The Writ, however, a stipulates that the CoGA HAS the authority to act as it has. Safeholdians have had that drilled ceaselessly into their heads. The only argument that might be made from the outside is that the authority God granted the CoGA has been abused. That argument is likely being accepted throughout all of Safehold by now. Once the jihadi forces have been destroyed, the truth of that argument will be universally accepted because God did not bless the CoGA forces with victory.

If the CoGA fights to the bitter end and is defeated, it will be concluded that everyone of God's agents within His Church has lost His blessing. If the perceived godly one, Duchairn, within the CoGA appears to recognize his error and attempts to fix it, he will be given the benefit of the doubt that God has NOT withdrawn His blessings from the CoGA. If the EoC does not accept the offer to negotiate, they will lose the growing certainty that God does bless their cause.

Duchairn wants to heal the CoGA and knows that defeat by the EoC will make that healing infinitely harder and less likely than willingly reforming the CoGA. If he does not heal his church and the resulting generations of strife claims more lives, they will be on his head as he would see it. He must try to mitigate that cost in lives and reform the CoGA. This is at the core of his renewal of faith.

If Duchairn promises reform under terms that the Allies must accept, the Allies will have no choice but to give peace a chance. This will be especially true, if Clyntahn is killed and the Inquisition is purged of his cronies. If the EoC ignores the honest peace overtures by Duchairn, it will be correctly seen as a desire to destroy the CoGA not to reform it. That will destroy the support of many in Old Charis and likely most in Siddermark and the rest of the Empire. They can't risk that.

I am not saying these options are best for the EoC and the good guys. I am saying these are the menu of options Duchairn will have before him. His projected decisions are based on the text of his internal monologues. I don't believe these fundamental elements of Safehold will change until the Writ is discredited and that won't be possible until the Return.

PeterZ wrote:Jeff,

I am not restating my entire argument with each post. Let us review that argument.

Safehold has a monolithic religious, moral, legal and natural philosophy paradigm derived from the Writ. It is as stated in this snippet a seamless description of God's will.

God created EVERYTHING and left proof of this fact for every Safeholdian to recognize.

God, through His archangels, left behind His will for mankind found in the Writ.

He created the Church to guide mankind in the proper way of life that would please Him.

To a Safeholdian every aspect of life is touched by God. Skills passed from father to son since Creation were first given to man by the archangels. Blessings and curse are littered in every Safehodlians life that remind them that the world around them is the product of the active will of God and His archangels fighting the active malice of the Dark. This last sentence is worth repeating.

Every aspect of existence on Safehold is made possible by the active will of God and His archangels fighting the active malice of the Dark. As an example, microorganisms are demons set loose by Shan-wei to harm mankind but are thwarted by Hasting's(?) blessings. This belief is universally held outside of the St. Zherneau Inner Circle. There is no choice for Safeholdians but to accept those rules as facts of life, because as Merlin mused in this snippet the proof of God's existence is unassailable. His existence and His will are fact. Disobeying God is placing the souls of everyone an individual loves at risk. This isn't part of some nuanced theology that might be taught but part of the bedrock foundation of the Safeholdian belief structure and is at the very heart of the CoGA's power.

To be clear, I'm not disagreeing through this point. (Apart from what really is a quibble: that the details really are theology that is taught - it's just theology that's perfectly well evidenced and undisputed.)

To these people Clyntahn is terrifying and Duchairn is a godly man, but both are acting within the scope of the CoGA authority as given by God. Clyntahn has the authority to do what he does, but is corrupt and uses that power for impure motives. Duchairn is viewed as using his authority to help God's children. Recall Duchairn has not visibly supported Clyntahn's purge of the Vicarate. If the CoGA cleanses itself as it has done numerous times since Creation, that is part of God's plan. If the CoGA is defeated and dictated to by outside forces, how else is that described than a victory by the Dark? If the loyalist priests preach that the schism will not be healed. If many priests do not preach that, those that do will claim coercion. If those priests are removed from office, coercion is proved. If those priests are not removed, the rupture remains.

I'm suggesting that the attitudes of people outside the reach of the CoGA on Safehold - in the Empire of Charis, in government-loyalist Siddarmark, and in the privacy of a few open minds - clearly aren't running on these paths. Defeating the CoGA and dictating to them by outside forces is exactly what Siddarmark and Charis are after - wholeheartedly, with a vengeance, and with every expectation that God and Langhorne are on their side. So clearly that attitude is possible on Safehold, and the best predictor for whether a person is a Temple/Clyntahn Loyalist or some sort of Reformer or member of the Church of Charis, is fear for their lives and those of their families, where applicable, and who is genuinely in the right otherwise.

There isn't any longer an unquestioned expectation that the Church, as represented by the Temple, is Langhorne's legitimate heir.

Any arguments made to assert that God has removed his authority from the CoGA must be made within the context of the Writ. The Writ, however, a stipulates that the CoGA HAS the authority to act as it has. Safeholdians have had that drilled ceaselessly into their heads. The only argument that might be made from the outside is that the authority God granted the CoGA has been abused. That argument is likely being accepted throughout all of Safehold by now. Once the jihadi forces have been destroyed, the truth of that argument will be universally accepted because God did not bless the CoGA forces with victory.

If the CoGA fights to the bitter end and is defeated, it will be concluded that everyone of God's agents within His Church has lost His blessing. If the perceived godly one, Duchairn, within the CoGA appears to recognize his error and attempts to fix it, he will be given the benefit of the doubt that God has NOT withdrawn His blessings from the CoGA.

I have to say that the perception of Duchairn as godly is a political question. Continuing the jihad does not get him that credit on the EoC side, or among more-or-less Loyalist Reformers. Ending the jihad doesn't get him that credit among the hardliners. Being Clyntahn's ally for years as a part of the Group of Four won't get him that credit among informed or suspicious people who know about Clyntahn's personal habits.

If the EoC does not accept the offer to negotiate, they will lose the growing certainty that God does bless their cause.

Would they? Surely, if they perceived it as a sincere and practical offer. But is there some reason for them to think that he could reign in Church abuses, accept the Church of Charis as a permanent reality, and not re-launch the jihad (either himself or a successor) down the road?

If they're orthodox in their theology, other than their stance on Temple authority, they could perfectly well read such an offer as Shan-wei's temptation to their softer nature - giving in to the lure of ending a war early, and allowing the Temple, her tool on Safehold, to recover and undo all their work.

They are not acting like they are waiting, hat in hand, for any peace offer that may come out of Zion, helpless to resist any suggestion for reconciliation.

Duchairn wants to heal the CoGA and knows that defeat by the EoC will make that healing infinitely harder and less likely than willingly reforming the CoGA. If he does not heal his church and the resulting generations of strife claims more lives, they will be on his head as he would see it. He must try to mitigate that cost in lives and reform the CoGA. This is at the core of his renewal of faith.

He's still hankering after a universal Church on Safehold, and to reform it. Certainly defeat by the EoC will mean the end of that universal church - the CoC has not even got the ambition of being that, should it win. But that can be detached from reforming the rump CoGA, and that reform may well require defeat by the Empire of Charis. It may be that only in the wake of the defeat of Clyntahn's program and the jihad that a vision of the Church as shepherd and caregiver can take hold.

I don't think he quite sees the abandonment of a universal Church as an acceptable option yet; I just think he's got his head still in the sand that way.

If Duchairn promises reform under terms that the Allies must accept, the Allies will have no choice but to give peace a chance. This will be especially true, if Clyntahn is killed and the Inquisition is purged of his cronies. If the EoC ignores the honest peace overtures by Duchairn, it will be correctly seen as a desire to destroy the CoGA not to reform it. That will destroy the support of many in Old Charis and likely most in Siddermark and the rest of the Empire. They can't risk that.

I am not saying these options are best for the EoC and the good guys. I am saying these are the menu of options Duchairn will have before him. His projected decisions are based on the text of his internal monologues. I don't believe these fundamental elements of Safehold will change until the Writ is discredited and that won't be possible until the Return.

And I think you are giving the Church of God Awaiting (Temple branch) far too much respect and affection in the eyes of the people it has condemned to fire and death, who have broken navy after navy and army after army sent by Zion to torture and kill them and their children. They've got their Church(es) now and they kinda like them. In Siddarmark's case, they've really got blood in their eyes, after the "godly" men of the Temple, anointed by Langhorne with the safety of their souls, cast them into bloody civil war, disease, starvation, rape and pillage.

I do think these people can resist quite a few sorts of peace offers and still think they're in the right. Religion here on Earth surely has that effect, and their own readings of the Writ can pull it off as well.

We have no idea what the Sisters of St. Khody will think of the 'truth,' nor do I see Merlin revealing it any time soon. However as a Sejen who knows the language of the Sejen he might translate the unknown passages of St. Khody's journals for the Sisters and provide transportation. We must wait the next Snippet.

Poker