HQ Snippet #21 3-27-15

n7axw wrote: quote="JeffEngel" quote="anwi"Due to the heading of the section, I'm confident we'll get an extended scene at the abbey, and we'll wait after Easter for news on the war, while Ahlverez is probably stuck starving in the wilderness until Pentecoste. /quote
Gracious, that's taking fasting mighty seriously..../quote

Yeah,.about like the biblical 40 days and 40 nights...

Don

That's ok, he probably needs a good purge/cleansing diet.

Relatively Random thoughts (appropriately enough!)

We are headed to the Shrine not the Abbey, so there should be fewer sisters around to try Nynian's strategy on for a first go. The Abbey is 60 miles west and, interestingly, both are all but cut off from contact with the rest of the world for the next 2 or 3 months. I'm interested to see what she has in mind as the text strongly suggests she doesn't intend to tell them the whole truth. (might be wrong).

It suggests there is something or someone there she wants to use/see. Could be the Diary. If she wants Merlin to translate the Diary for the sisters it's because he has already done so for her (eidetic memory, remember) and she thinks it will be helpful. 'Never ask a question you don't know the answer to', as the trial lawyers say.

The SNARCs haven't found any trace of technology at the Abbey, though it isn't clear if they have been inside. Certainly there are no active power sources. The Shrine may be a different story depending how deep the cave is and how far the iron deposits in the Mountains of Light extend. I personally think it is unlikely.

n7axw wrote:

SYED wrote:What if merlin provides them with a fully translated copy of Khodys book? If he also provides them with an espanol guide for themselves, it makes their translation more believable. It would be very tricky to alter the text, without creating inconsistancies. They are a bunch of smart women, they know the book by heart. So it would have a very good fake to trick them, a guide to translate it, would also help them to be more convinced.

They might not believe in merlin, but they would believe in khody.

Imagine the mother superior of this order, with access to merlin's surveilance system. The inquisition thinks they had issues before, they will be beggining for those happy days to return.

I suspect that is what we get next unless this next snippet takes us up to BGV or elsewhere. What actually turns up in the Spanish translation of Kodhy's journal I am waiting with eager anticipation to know. How Nynian and the sisters react will be even more interesting...

Don

I think Mother Superior is pretty well comfortable with what might come of it. The others, I'm so sure.

SYED wrote:What if merlin provides them with a fully translated copy of Khodys book? If he also provides them with an espanol guide for themselves, it makes their translation more believable. It would be very tricky to alter the text, without creating inconsistancies. They are a bunch of smart women, they know the book by heart. So it would have a very good fake to trick them, a guide to translate it, would also help them to be more convinced.

They might not believe in merlin, but they would believe in khody.

Imagine the mother superior of this order, with access to merlin's surveilance system. The inquisition thinks they had issues before, they will be beggining for those happy days to return.

I suspect that she was fitted with the magic contacts before they left the cave. I've been waiting for the day you speak of.

Randomiser wrote:We are headed to the Shrine not the Abbey, so there should be fewer sisters around to try Nynian's strategy on for a first go. The Abbey is 60 miles west and, interestingly, both are all but cut off from contact with the rest of the world for the next 2 or 3 months. I'm interested to see what she has in mind as the text strongly suggests she doesn't intend to tell them the whole truth. (might be wrong).

I read it differently. The 60 miles is a reference to the distance between a river and the abbey. The cave of Kohdy's tomb is probably not on the grounds of the abbey, but in the vicinity (in the mountains east of the abbey). And the standard way to the cave goes through the abbey.
As to what Aivah's up to: very hard to tell. Indeed, we don't know whether they are headed to the abbey or to the cave. My money would be on the cave. But I'm quite sure that they will visit the abbey on the trip.

Randomiser wrote:The SNARCs haven't found any trace of technology at the Abbey, though it isn't clear if they have been inside. Certainly there are no active power sources. The Shrine may be a different story depending how deep the cave is and how far the iron deposits in the Mountains of Light extend. I personally think it is unlikely.

Since the cave was built by the Sisterhood, there shouldn't be any artefacts other than Kohdy's relicts - which do include a (probably) battlesteel sword.
And Langhorne's retreat must've been purged by the surviving crew members before the construction of the monastery was authorized, which in turn was when at least "minor angels" were still alive. So, there'll be no secondary control centre for the OBS.
My question was rather: Could there've been something that was overlooked, something passive?

I suspect there could be a piece of TF tech in the posession of the sisters that could be used for some purpose or perhaps revered as a connection To Seijin Khody. We know they have his sword, for example. There might be other possibilities as well.

Another example of the same sort of thing would be the verifier passed on by Schuller to the Wylsyns.

To speculate on how Nynian will handle the sisters, my guess is that Merlin will be introduced as a seijin with some extraordinary powers. They are used to the notion of seijins. That avoids dumping the whole load on them and makes it easier for Merlin to share the translation of the Espanol since his credibility will be that of a seijin rather that fight through the cloud of suspicion that would surround someone suspected of upsetting the whole apple cart.

Don

runsforcelery wrote:Now, don't you guys go reading too much speculation into this one . . . .

_______________________________________________


snip

Merlin nodded, his own expression sober.

The problem, from the viewpoint of someone attempting to debunk the lie Langhorne and his command crew had crafted so carefully, was that literally nothing in the Safeholdian worldview offered a thread he could pull to unravel it.
snip

This passage is the core of why I don't believe military victory will be sufficient to truly defeat the CoGA, especially with the Return due back within three decades.

Safehold has the monolithic moral paradigm of any society in human history.

Morality in Safehold infuses not just human behavior but also natural processes.

The CoGA was created by God to complete His plan for humanity after the archangels returned to heaven.

If the EoC and CoC conquers the CoGA rather than reforming it, whatever it decides to do will not carry the legitimacy of the CoGA. Nothing will because no matter what else they do the CoC will have destroyed God's gift to man; His Church.

The only way true reconciliation can happen is with CoGA approval while they still have a choice.

I woner what items and texts they have collected over the senturies, things the church was after or wanted to remove? We know there was some editing over the years

Was khody an adam? That means he had that brain implant, i wonder if it has any info in it.

PeterZ wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:Now, don't you guys go reading too much speculation into this one . . . .

_______________________________________________


snip

Merlin nodded, his own expression sober.

The problem, from the viewpoint of someone attempting to debunk the lie Langhorne and his command crew had crafted so carefully, was that literally nothing in the Safeholdian worldview offered a thread he could pull to unravel it.
snip

This passage is the core of why I don't believe military victory will be sufficient to truly defeat the CoGA, especially with the Return due back within three decades.

Safehold has the monolithic moral paradigm of any society in human history.

Morality in Safehold infuses not just human behavior but also natural processes.

The CoGA was created by God to complete His plan for humanity after the archangels returned to heaven.

If the EoC and CoC conquers the CoGA rather than reforming it, whatever it decides to do will not carry the legitimacy of the CoGA. Nothing will because no matter what else they do the CoC will have destroyed God's gift to man; His Church.

The only way true reconciliation can happen is with CoGA approval while they still have a choice.

The Church of Charis enjoys reasonable moral authority in the Empire - enough for the large majority to back it and their Emperor and Empress against the Church of God Awaiting. People like Earl Thirsk or Rhobair Duchairn outside it, knowing what the Church is like, can't blame them for it either.

So either it's capable of commanding the loyalty of people of Safehold - absent the coercive power of the Inquisition and secular powers in its pocket - as a part, representative, or true heir of that Church, or that the Church is God's gift isn't overwhelmingly important to them. That doesn't mean questioning the Writ's account of history, necessarily, but it may mean figuring that the moral chain of legitimacy from God to Langhorne to Clyntahn got broken along the way.

If reconciliation took the assent of the Temple, then Charis would have overthrown its monarchy as soon as the Temple's opinion of its monarchs became clear. Instead, we have a pattern of that sense of the legitimacy of the Temple's authority running along familiar bases, whatever the historical or theological consensus: it runs as far as people fear or admire it, no further. The militaries of Charis and Siddarmark are breaking the fear; Clyntahn is breaking the admiration, no matter Duchairn's heroic efforts to bail it out.

The Writ is going to be re-interpreted as need be to meet the world people find themselves in. Changing its account of matters of fact is all the challenge Merlin is making it out to be, but the matters of legitimacy and moral authority can vary on their own given pressure.

PeterZ wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:Now, don't you guys go reading too much speculation into this one . . . .

_______________________________________________


snip

Merlin nodded, his own expression sober.

The problem, from the viewpoint of someone attempting to debunk the lie Langhorne and his command crew had crafted so carefully, was that literally nothing in the Safeholdian worldview offered a thread he could pull to unravel it.
snip

This passage is the core of why I don't believe military victory will be sufficient to truly defeat the CoGA, especially with the Return due back within three decades.

Safehold has the monolithic moral paradigm of any society in human history.

Morality in Safehold infuses not just human behavior but also natural processes.

The CoGA was created by God to complete His plan for humanity after the archangels returned to heaven.

If the EoC and CoC conquers the CoGA rather than reforming it, whatever it decides to do will not carry the legitimacy of the CoGA. Nothing will because no matter what else they do the CoC will have destroyed God's gift to man; His Church.

The only way true reconciliation can happen is with CoGA approval while they still have a choice.

It is certainly true that winning militarily over the COGA does not destroy the church's legitimacy. But the COGA can destroy its own legitimacy. And it has been working hard on that.

But even after the power of the COGA is crushed, its beliefs will live on in the minds in a majority of Safehold's people. But it's moral authority will have been shattered, first by the corruption of the vicars and then by the brutality of the inquisition when knowledge of the death camps becomes widely known. Even cleaning out the corrupt vicars and getting a fresh group of better people can't change that. There will always be that taint coloring perceptions of the COGA that will prevent it from ever being fully trusted the way it was before the attack on Charis and the Sword of Schuler.

Perhaps Nahrman puts it best,

"The one thing in the entire world that the Church can't afford to lose is its moral authority as God's voice, His steward among His people, Trahvys." His voice was very, very soft. "That's been the true basis for the world's unity--and the Church's power--since the day of creation itself. But now the Group of Four has just thrown that away, as if it were so unimportant, so trivial, that it wasn't worth so much as a second thought. Only they were wrong. It wasn't unimportant; it was the only thing that could have saved them. Now it's gone. And that, Trahvys--that--is something they will never, ever be able to get back again." BSRA, Year of God 892, Section VI.

Don