OpForce against OpForce

Henke & Bellefeuille vs. Oversteegen & Tourville.

Where is a popcorn-munching smiley when you need one??

roseandheather wrote:Henke & Bellefeuille vs. Oversteegen & Tourville.

Where is a popcorn-munching smiley when you need one??

The humorous insults between Henke and Oversteegen would be just as much fun as the contest. Remember the days when little boys fought with little girls because they liked them? When you exchanged verbal insults with someone until you both realized..."I think we're in love."

Well, I remember!


What? Those days never fled?!

roseandheather wrote:Henke & Bellefeuille vs. Oversteegen & Tourville.

Where is a popcorn-munching smiley when you need one??

Caramel or butter?

I hope no one will begrudge me a sort of emeritus mention of a contest that shall forever remain in the "What if" annals.

Esther McQueen vs. Honor Harrington.

I maintain that RFC killed off Esther McQueen to protect a certain *Salamander. Because the momentum of fate was inexorably rolling the two towards each other and perhaps a certain urodela would have been cleaned and flayed.

If RFC had truly wanted to go ahead with killing off the Salamander, then who better to believably have a pair of brass balls polished enough to do it than Esther?

*Don't you find it ironic that true Salamanders regenerate, yet ours do not?

--snipping--

cthia wrote:Esther McQueen vs. Honor Harrington.

I maintain that RFC killed off Esther McQueen to protect a certain *Salamander. Because the momentum of fate was inexorably rolling the two towards each other and perhaps a certain urodela would have been cleaned and flayed.

If RFC had truly wanted to go ahead with killing off the Salamander, then who better to believably have a pair of brass balls polished enough to do it than Esther?

*Don't you find it ironic that true Salamanders regenerate, yet ours do not?

At the risk of offending a certain 'roseandheather', I'd take that bet. I think that Honor would kick McQueen's forces arse, because of the lesser capable ships in the PN. Basically Honor's ships would have killed Esther first, though likely neither would survive if the battle were fought to an ultimate conclusion.

Keep in mind, Pierre and St. Just pulled her from defending Trevor's Star to keep her from either being killed by Hamish' forces or from having to "shoot their star admiral" had she survived but failed. (a dumb tactic to begin with anyway.)

Now then, I don't think Honor would have won because McQueen was inherently lesser qualified, but RFC says that she succeeded by being cunning with her forces and ruthless in the attrition game, aka trading ships for victories. In a single battle, however, at that point in the stories, McQueen didn't have Foraker's defensive genius to play with yet.

Meaning that if Esther is in the flagship, it's not going to take long before the RMN/GSN, etc. would have attritted the deck McQueen was sitting or standing on into a fusion induced fireball, the same as Honor's forces would have done to Theisman in HotQ, Caslet in HoE, or Tourville in AAC, had they not surrendered first.

How the PN fought AFTER McQueen would have been blown up or taken out of the battle would determine the winner.

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

cthia wrote:Esther McQueen vs. Honor Harrington.

I maintain that RFC killed off Esther McQueen to protect a certain *Salamander. Because the momentum of fate was inexorably rolling the two towards each other and perhaps a certain urodela would have been cleaned and flayed.

If RFC had truly wanted to go ahead with killing off the Salamander, then who better to believably have a pair of brass balls polished enough to do it than Esther?

*Don't you find it ironic that true Salamanders regenerate, yet ours do not?

At the risk of offending a certain 'roseandheather', I'd take that bet. I think that Honor would kick McQueen's forces arse, because of the lesser capable ships in the PN. Basically Honor's ships would have killed Esther first, though likely neither would survive if the battle were fought to an ultimate conclusion.

Keep in mind, Pierre and St. Just pulled her from defending Trevor's Star to keep her from either being killed by Hamish' forces or from having to "shoot their star admiral" had she survived but failed. (a dumb tactic to begin with anyway.)

Now then, I don't think Honor would have won because McQueen was inherently lesser qualified, but RFC says that she succeeded by being cunning with her forces and ruthless in the attrition game, aka trading ships for victories. In a single battle, however, at that point in the stories, McQueen didn't have Foraker's defensive genius to play with yet.

Meaning that if Esther is in the flagship, it's not going to take long before the RMN/GSN, etc. would have attritted the deck McQueen was sitting or standing on into a fusion induced fireball, the same as Honor's forces would have done to Theisman in HotQ, Caslet in HoE, or Tourville in AAC, had they not surrendered first.

How the PN fought AFTER McQueen would have been blown up or taken out of the battle would determine the winner.

An interesting view you have.

I still maintain that it would have been the one to see. A stealthy MAlign ship would have enjoyed watching that show with buttered popcorn.

I think it would have come down to the point in time that they met. Before all of the fiendish ECM advances and Apollo, at a time when the tech was at its most level, and McQueen had equal forces and had the first-move advantage. Advantage - McQueen. Factor Shannon on McQueen's ship - well...

One thing's for certain, the aftermath would have been tons of worthless space junk floating.

Something interesting to consider is if McQueen had lived, would she have been the CO of Operation Beatrice? And if so, would she have fared any better?

cthia wrote:Something interesting to consider is if McQueen had lived, would she have been the CO of Operation Beatrice? And if so, would she have fared any better?

If she had lived she would have been Empress, not Admiral.

crewdude48 wrote:

cthia wrote:Something interesting to consider is if McQueen had lived, would she have been the CO of Operation Beatrice? And if so, would she have fared any better?

If she had lived she would have been Empress, not Admiral.

What was I not thinking about?! Thanks crewdude.

Which brings me to another hmm kind of thought. She would have been an Empress who not only could have conceived of the operation, she could have been the quintessential swashbuckling Empress...

"If I have to. I'll lead the charge!"

cthia wrote:Something interesting to consider is if McQueen had lived, would she have been the CO of Operation Beatrice? And if so, would she have fared any better?

She would have been the head of state of Haven had she survived, unless you're suggesting an alternate universe where Pierre and Saint-Just kept her away from Nouveau Paris... and the front lines. Empress, Citizen Chairwoman, Hereditary President or an actual bona fide elected President intent on winning all her elections by any means in a Frank Underwood sense.

It's scary, thinking what McQueen would or could do with the kind of prestige that Eloise Pritchart earned for holding public elections and allowing a hundred systems to voluntarily leave, along with punishing StateSec personnel.

Probably devote even more resources to Bolthole, forget about Operation Thunderbolt entirely and throw Beatrice as her opening punch. Against a RMN Home Fleet savaged by High Ridge and Janacek budgetary cuts and policies.

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

cthia wrote:Esther McQueen vs. Honor Harrington.

I maintain that RFC killed off Esther McQueen to protect a certain *Salamander. Because the momentum of fate was inexorably rolling the two towards each other and perhaps a certain urodela would have been cleaned and flayed.

If RFC had truly wanted to go ahead with killing off the Salamander, then who better to believably have a pair of brass balls polished enough to do it than Esther?

*Don't you find it ironic that true Salamanders regenerate, yet ours do not?

At the risk of offending a certain 'roseandheather', I'd take that bet. I think that Honor would kick McQueen's forces arse, because of the lesser capable ships in the PN. Basically Honor's ships would have killed Esther first, though likely neither would survive if the battle were fought to an ultimate conclusion.

Keep in mind, Pierre and St. Just pulled her from defending Trevor's Star to keep her from either being killed by Hamish' forces or from having to "shoot their star admiral" had she survived but failed. (a dumb tactic to begin with anyway.)

Now then, I don't think Honor would have won because McQueen was inherently lesser qualified, but RFC says that she succeeded by being cunning with her forces and ruthless in the attrition game, aka trading ships for victories. In a single battle, however, at that point in the stories, McQueen didn't have Foraker's defensive genius to play with yet.

Meaning that if Esther is in the flagship, it's not going to take long before the RMN/GSN, etc. would have attritted the deck McQueen was sitting or standing on into a fusion induced fireball, the same as Honor's forces would have done to Theisman in HotQ, Caslet in HoE, or Tourville in AAC, had they not surrendered first.

How the PN fought AFTER McQueen would have been blown up or taken out of the battle would determine the winner.

Actually, I agree with you.

*patiently waits for y'all to pick your jaws up off the floor*

There's no doubt in my mind that Esther McQueen is a fiendishly clever tactician. She had to be, given that Haven was already seeing greater military success even before the Theisman Coup. And if she could get even Javier Giscard believing in her...

Oh, yeah. Esther McQueen is a strategic genius, there's no denying that, and powerfully charismatic to boot.

HOWEVER.

Given the hardware she had, she was living on borrowed time. You can only play the "I have more ships than you" game for so long in a situation like hers, because Haven's rate of attrition, proportionally speaking, would have caught up with them as Manticore continued to get farther and farther ahead technologically. Even when she was "trading ships for victories", as you so astutely put it, with relative parity of forces, she couldn't have won against Honor Harrington. Honor had better-qualified people and she had exponentially better tech at her disposal.

Could McQueen have pulled out a victory? Maybe. Maybe. But it would have been a pyrrhic victory at best, and she would have only hung on to the system long enough for Honor to come back with fresh ships and take it right back away from her again.

Now, if you're talking a Harrington-vs-McQueen battle with the kind of Havenite tech that existed as of First Manticore, I think it would all be on the roll of the dice. Not to mention a space battle for the ages. But pre-Theisman Coup? No. She just didn't have the resources, the tech, or the personnel to take on Honor Harrington in a toe-to-toe fight and come out on top.

I respect Esther McQueen a hell of a lot. I even understand - a bit too well - how Javier could find himself caught under her spell, because I did, too. I admit it: my first read through AoV, I was rooting for her. Even knowing who she was, what she was, and where she would take Haven in the future if she pulled it off, I was rooting for her. She is, without question, one of the all-time great tactical minds of the Honorverse.

But when all the odds are stacked against you, even the brightest military genius in the world can't win. And pre-Theisman coup, against Honor Stephanie Harrington armed with the most cutting-edge ships Manticore had, all the odds would have been stacked against her.