Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 26 guests

HFQ Official Snippet #20

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: HFQ Official Snippet #20
Post by PeterZ   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:10 pm

PeterZ
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 6432
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 1:11 pm
Location: Colorado

McGuiness wrote:snip

So there's this sneaky, underhanded example brewing in Charis now for the rest of Safehold (oh please, Bloody Siddarmark, take note...) for mutual religious toleration across faiths under a single secular government. And in point of fact, no one in government is compelling anyone to choose between the CoC, some variety of Temple Loyalist church that can manage to live with it, some other variety of Reformist Church that can manage to live with it a bit more easily, or even (still essentially hypothetically, outside the Inner Circle) leaving theology behind and staying home on Wednesdays.

If and when people can wrap their heads around that, they can do without bloody religious wars. It takes less than the triumph of the Church of Charis - it just takes its triumph securing space to breathe in a given area.


What I believe many people don't emphasize enough or forget, Mac, is that Safehold does not have a history of varied morality. Everyone on Safehold has the exact same base for their morality. There truly is only one right moral answer to any moral question. The basis for moral judgment is found in the Writ. Period.

In order for anyone to assert a moral judgment that is acceptable to Safehold in general, it must be founded in the Writ. That means morality and theology are one and the same until such time as the Reveal discredits the Writ.

Defeating the armies of the CoGA means absolutely nothing unless the CoC can find arguments within the Writ to change the CoGA's more objectionable doctrines....like the Inquisition as is currently authorized. Without such arguments not even an army sitting in Zion will make Safeholdians believe good might be defined by anything other than the Writ. Christians tossed to the lions in Rome just had their faith and God's love. Safeholdians have God's love, less well developed faith and documentary proof that what little faith they do have is well founded because God really does exist. Christians never gave up their religion. What makes anyone think that Safeholdians with apparently far more buttressing their religion give up on their? So long as they won't, toleration must be founding on the Writ somehow. No amount of guns can ever win that argument.
Top
Re: HFQ Official Snippet #20
Post by JeffEngel   » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:42 pm

JeffEngel
Admiral

Posts: 2074
Joined: Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:06 pm

Tonto Silerheels wrote:JeffEngel wrote:

The usual move is to pick out good thing(s) that are pretty nearly universally considered good...

Yeah, but you told me that I should open my mind to possibilities other than voting.

Yesss... Do you call it voting if people determine it is raining by going outside and feeling water falling on their face from the sky? If it's a matter of noticing there are standards and preferences that obvious, is it just a matter of mere, arbitrary popular opinion? How about the broad consensus that 2+2=4? (Rather a lot broader than the deeper analytic proofs of it; it's certainly encouraging that various means all converge on a single answer that way.)

If that sort of thing counts as "voting", then sure, you could call just about anything the confidence in which has anything whatever to do with the fact that disagreement on it can be considered just perverse, but in that case, I'm not seeing it as an objection.
And it's not something that's compared to a system of morality: these are candidates for that standard against which more concrete systems of morality are judged.

I'm sorry, but you've lost me. What's not something that's compared to a system of morality? The things that are almost universally considered good, the matter-of-fact questions, or the candidates for the standard?
The practically universally cherished things.
Are you saying that the standard is morality? If so, then how do you choose a moral standard absent a moral system. And if not then how can an amoral standard judge between systems of morality?

In actual practice, it's rarely a practice to try to start from absolutely nowhere and see about an entire moral system based on nothing whatever. The starting point is a set of considerations everyone (or close enough to it) holds as valid or important and judgments to be made as right or wrong, better or worse. Not all the considerations or judgments will line up. Many will. So you go back from the points agreed upon to work out more fundamental values or rules (or somethings, if you can articulate another category) that would deliver the "right" answers to the non-controversial questions and satisfy whatever other criteria you accept and others will accept, like consistency (at least!), and maybe delivers answers to the controversial ones - or gives a principled reason for considering them undecidable.

I'm not sure if that answers your questions there, but I don't believe I can follow them in a way to offer anything better.
Others are a bit more ambitious, with adherents claiming, in effect, if your moral intuitions deliver other answers, the moral intuitions are confused, bad, wrong, or inappropriate.

Yeah, but you told me to open my mind to possibilities other than the existence of elites who have better moral standards than others who are non-elite (I compared that to the Pope.)
And I wouldn't think that's what you're left with there. I'm pointing out that some moral theorists are going to tell you that, if you've got a gut feeling that x is wrong and the theory they've got says x is fine, that's a problem with you, not with the theory. It's not as if that's tantamount to elites having beliefs that non-elites just have to suck up. It's like mathematicians maybe knowing the math well enough to tell me I'm wrong about something because that's not how the numbers add up.
Specific virtue theorists have different lists. Just what makes a particular attitude a virtue, a vice, or morally indifferent certainly isn't clear to me - not without using a standard outside virtue theory - but I'm not going to take a position as to whether that's a problem for virtue ethics, for the presentation of virtue ethics, or just my understanding of it. Similarly, how to resolve conflicts among virtues is a problem, but what sort, again, there are similar possibilities.

Yeah, but you told me to open my mind to other possibilities than that every man's morality is equal to every other man's morality.
Yes. Still would. Not seeing the problem here.

I'm leaving it at this, I think. I'm not getting the impression this dialogue is going anywhere.
Top
Re: HFQ Official Snippet #20
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 3:21 am

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi PeterZ,

I still have trouble understanding why you keep pushing this plot development when there's not a shred of textev to support any of it.

Granted, there are all kinds of people with quirky ideas, but the rational for this only seems to make sense if you're wandering with Alice in Wonderland.

** to follow.

PeterZ wrote:The only Vicars untainted with the jihad are dead. All the others voted for the jihad when the Grand Vicar proposed it. Clyntahn would not have let any vicar voting against the jihad to live when he purged the Vicarate. Who would be untouched by the jihad? I suspect no one.

** In other words a clean sweep is in order, if Duchairn is going to be honest about things, but do you really expect him to surrender the vicarate and temple etc to the Reformists?

Do you really think all the rest of the corruption that is the CoGA administration would ever let him even try?

So if he did, what is the most obvious and probable reaction by the other 99.99%?

Other posters have pointed to the circle's younger survivors to replace the vicarate etc, although getting them to accept positions in the still corrupt CoGA seems too big of a whopper to swallow.

Convincing them to help prop up the corruption that tortured and killed their friends and murdered millions is too fantastic, in fact it will be something I want to see in RFC's own words before I'll credit it being even in the realm of the possible.

Because I kinda suspect among other things they know it'd all be a sham because they wouldn't be accepted by the rest of the CoGA, especially the remaining hierarchy, unless you have then all executed first, including Duchairn.**


As for Duchairn, wouldn't Nynian have a good idea of Duchairn's mindset? I suspect so.

** That's a given, it doesn't mean it changes the equation enough to twist things your way.

To even try to convince anyone in Siddarmark or the EoC that the rest of the Go4 isn't guilty of procuring and encouraging murdering millions boggles the mind.

From the view of Siddarmark and the EoC Duchairn appears to be doing all he can to make the jihad work.

What kinds of good will gestures do you think Duchairn and CoGA owe Siddarmark and the EoC as preconditions to any offer of a truce?**


Bottom line is that an offer for a cease fire from Duchairn to at least discuss minimum requirements for a negotiated peace in person with Cayleb and Stonar would benefit Siddermark most. The few months of truce would let the RSA recruit and equip enough new units to be independent of the ICA. Sure the AoG would also gain more rifles, but the allies would increase their capabilities more.


** Sorry, the primary limitation on the RSA fielding more rifle divisions has been the bottleneck of rifles to equip more.

Since the EoC should deliver some 250,000 M96's to Siddarmark in 897, so the ICA can then turn their year old Mahndrayns over to the RSA, which in combination with the republic's new production and captured stocks will enable the current 30 division force [15 still training through the spring] to be at least doubled by the end of the year.

There should be no trouble with maintaining the RSA's division-making machine at the same pace in 898, and the best RSA divisions could receive M96's that year as well.

Given the alliance's superior weapons, no pause to reorganize and improve training etc while letting the enemy regains some of his strength is necessary nor wise.

The idea the Lord Protector and his ministers, NTM who suffered from the SoS is willing to give the CoGA another chance to kill or destroy the republic seems to be from smoking something that's still generally illegal in this country.

From the textev I find it exceedingly difficult to imagine any of the characters you mention arguing your case, especially with your ridiculously fanatical fervor.

Secondly you claim that such a short peace period would enable the RSA to become independent of the ICA.

Really?

Why is that so immediately important to you?

The time to fully reorganize and retrain the RSA to fully exploit the experience and capabilities the ICA has developed will take years, not a few month's; NTM since technically, starting such changes could make things worse.

The Lord Protector and his ministers know that better than you apparently, and would never be so brain dead as to fooled by such stupidity.

Given how important the alliance is to the future plans of Merlin and the inner circle, why do you want to subvert it as soon as possible?

Claiming such silliness when you know any pause would help the CoGA more is deceitful.**


Siddermark will accept a cease fire in place. Duchairn can convince Cayleb and Stonar that they can achieve their publically stated goal through negotiations. If the actual negotiations take too long, the allies can begin shooting. I don't see the upside in the allies not listening to the initial (post Clyntahn) offer to negotiate.


** Seriously?

On what basis can you claim that Siddarmark will accept a cease fire in place?

Or that Duchairn can convince Cayleb and Stohnar etc, other than you wish it?

Can you list what the alliance war aims are, since we've never had them listed?

The very idea of Siddarmark accepting a cease fire in place is ludicrous if not pathetic.

Duchairn may want to negotiate because he recognizes how desperate the CoGA situation is, but that doesn't mean he'll be able to.

Again, the CoGA far fanatical right will insist on continuing the fight, ie "no truce with heretics" etc; and how will Duchairn stop them when he doesn't have an army left any more?

L

**
n7axw wrote:*quote="PeterZ"*

Of course they are accessories. Yet, if they are willing to truly reform and execute reforms that Reformists will be happy with, can they be worked with? I suspect the CoC and Reformists will agree to work with them. Perhaps, their punishments if any will be part of the resultant negotiated reforms. Depending on the conditions at the time of the cease fire, this might well be a viable alternative to all parties involved.*quote*

No, I think they have to go and someone untainted by the jihad has to step up. I'm not saying that they should automaticly face execution, but they should face whatever penalty that the allies decide justice demands after a fair trial and be deprived of their positions. They have been too much a part of the problem to be part of the solution.

Don
*quote*
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: HFQ Official Snippet #20
Post by n7axw   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:30 am

n7axw
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 5997
Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2014 8:54 pm
Location: Viborg, SD

Hi Lyonheart and PeterZ,

I guess I'd have to say that Lyonheart spaks very eloquently for me here.

However, I would understand Peter's concern about the post-war COGA. I would only say that I wonder if there will even be a Council of Vicars. They might be better off settling for Archbishops and below who live in their sees. Maybe have Zion as the gathering of an annual convocation and use it the rest of the year as a shrine.

The point is that it will have to be the COGA's surviving clergy who pick up the fragments of what is left after the Council of Vicars is gone. Nobody can make those choices or do it for them. Trying to impose something from without would only be counterproductive.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
Top
Re: HFQ Official Snippet #20
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:19 am

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi PeterZ,

Only in your mind, will winning militarily put the CoC on the same level as the CoGA.

The sound theological arguments are going to take generations to sink in and be accepted even using a 2X4 clue-stick, as you know since the religious wars are evidently only beginning, so your claim to peacefully avert them is destined to fail.

Tymahn Hahskans was tortured to death for telling the truth, and you think his flock among others who suffered the same will accept the promise the same evil corrupt bastards who encouraged if not directly ordered that abomination will accept promises of future goodwill from the same people?

The use of force is the only thing most people will understand especially at first, for some reason it seems to get their attention faster than polite words they're ignoring.

So while you may equate that it means the alliance is on the same moral footing as the CoGA, I doubt the rest of Safehold does.

You say Clyntahn's use of force and compulsion wasn't inherently wrong, but somehow when the allies have the force advantage it suddenly is.

The obvious qualitative difference between the alliance and the Go4 will will be their that their mercy and justice will be far more fair than any CoGA member would believe possible.

Trust Cayleb, Sharleyan and Greyghor to be more merciful and just than the CoGA deserves, as they have always proved to be, that will have real effects upon the people of Howard and Haven than any self serving and effectively meaningless truce and negotiations by people too tainted to be trusted.

Given the the rank and file see the CoGA as the personal handiwork of God, putting the alliance on the same level is not a bad place for the alliance to start from, especially since they just beat the snot out it when they were so ridiculously outnumbered.

"Hmm, maybe God IS on their side, so maybe I should pay more attention to what they're saying for once," might be what the rest of the remaining CoGA members will or should be thinking as a result of that outright incredible miracle.

Hmm, if I were Merlin how would I plan to get the attention of most of Safehold's adults as soon as possible, to get them thinking new things for the first time in their lives?

Do you now recognise winning this war hasn't been just to save Charis or Siddarmark, but to get the rest of Safehold also thinking new things?

For the fanatical far right CoGA, Duchairn's coup, the truce and your peaceful negotiations are all an obvious betrayal which is why God is punishing the CoGA by letting it lose.

The fact that the German army didn't surrender at the end of WWI meant that the Germans were able to convince themselves, Hitler wasn't the only one, that they hadn't been truly defeated by the rest of the world but betrayed.

One would have thought the Germans would have taken refuge and pride in the fact it took the rest of the world 4 years to defeat them, but for some reason they preferred to think they had been betrayed, perhaps because that allowed them to think victory had been possible after all.

Pershing pointed out there should have been a surrender ceremony somewhere soon after the armistice, like maybe Berlin, because the argument Germany had been betrayed began almost immediately, with Mathias Erzberger being assassinated less than 3 years later, encouraged by the army claiming that it had been "stabbed in the back", even though it was Hindenburg himself who pressured Erzberger to sign the armistice on November 11, immediately, without seeking any better terms.

If Duchairn were to try anything close to to a truce followed by negotiations with the heretics to change the CoGA, it would immediately be split in a huge schism on the right, which might be what Merlin would want and plan on in the first place; since all the more the merrier in terms of people thinking and seeking some advantage, NTM schism being accepted as a reaction to intolerable conditions by all the CoGA schism members, even if the CoC was first.

Thus the premises and results you claim to see and or seek seem doomed from their own assumptions.

L


PeterZ wrote:No negotiations will put the CoC on an equal footing with the CoGA. Only a sound theological argument can do that. The Corisandian reformist priest killed in front of his Church presented such an argument. He persuaded his congregation with that argument. Making that argument from behind a bayonet will only focus loyalist minds on the use of force. It effectively equates Clyntahn's us of force with the Allies. Sure Clyntahn was more brutal and ruthless. But his use of force and compulsion is not inherently evil or wrong.

Bringing peace through mutually agreed upon negotiations on the other hand will emphasize the qualitative difference between Clyntahn and the Allies. The fundamental rightness/goodness of the CoC position is emphasized by their gaining willing cooperation from their enemies not a fearful compliance.
McGuiness wrote:snip

If anyone wants to argue about Rayno, keep in mind that both he and Clyntahn are inquisitors, and thus subject to immediate death, compliments of the EoC.

That's the very minimum starting point for a negotiated truce with the CoGA. No Go4. No Inquisition forcing everyone on Safehold to behave as they demand or be tortured to death. Renouncement of the Punishment, the Question, and the books of Schueler and Chihiro. Acceptance of the CoC as an equally valid path to God, and universal religious tolerance. (Good luck with that in Harchong and Desnair!)

Given these requirements, I think any negotiated peace comes at the point of a bayonet, with an occupying army in Zion and the Temple.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: HFQ Official Snippet #20
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:38 am

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi McGuiness,

Kudos for an excellent summation of several points.

Unfortunately sometimes the obvious just doesn't get through.

Again I agree that taking Rayno our first would hurt the inquisition more than having Clyntahn meet his maker first.

Besides the short stake his punishment might include being slowly drowned in a deep pit since I doubt he could swim in the first place, but being chained to the short stake...

But I doubt Duchairn if hew succeeds will have time for anything so inventive.

Perhaps if he jumps out of the temple, breaking his legs or ankles, he might enjoy a slow fire instead.

If he accidentally did it all to himself, slipping and tipping something over and trapping himself while the covering fire he set or ordered to cover or attack his enemies comes closer and closer...

L


McGuiness wrote:
PeterZ wrote:*quote="n7axw"*I agree that that the "final solution to the Charisian problem" and the jihad were born of out of Clyntahn's vision. So also his policies drove the inquisition's atrocities.

But Traynair, Duchairn and Magwair were right alongside of Clyntahn enabling his behavior and working to make those policies succeed. I know that Duchairn and to a lesser extent Magwair have been developed as sympathetic characters in the more recent books. But for me, that doesn't change a thing. They are accessory to Clyntahn's crimes and belong in the dock with him.

Don*quote*Of course they are accessories. Yet, if they are willing to truly reform and execute reforms that Reformists will be happy with, can they be worked with? I suspect the CoC and Reformists will agree to work with them. Perhaps, their punishments if any will be part of the resultant negotiated reforms. Depending on the conditions at the time of the cease fire, this might well be a viable alternative to all parties involved.
I think the only possibility for a negotiated peace will require the heads of the Go4. I also expect Duchairn will try "something" which will result in one of more of them dying, possibly himself.

The allies have no idea that Duchairn has rekindled his personal faith, but without his coordination of the Church's logistics and juggling of its finances, the land war would have foundered before it got started. He could be safely sent to finish out his life in a secluded monastery, but the allies don't know that, and his actions have led to the deaths of tens of thousands in Siddarmark (at the very least!) by making the war possible, and they're going to lead to a lot more deaths before the war is over. His head goes on a pike.

Magwair may be wising up and is certainly a smarter guy today than he was at the beginning of the series, but he's leading the jihad with no reservations. His head goes on a pike.

Trynair generated the support among the vicarate for the initial strike on Charis in OAR, and has kept their support all the way to the jihad being declared, aided by the wave of terror that Clyntahn generated when he executed the members of the Circle and all their relatives. Even though he's basically been riding the slash lizard ever since, his head goes on a pike.

Clyntahn of course needs to be impaled on a short spike! (For those unfamiliar with the term, the body is seated and impaled alive on a spike buried in the ground that penetrates the internal organs. It takes quite a while to die...) :twisted:

Remove Clyntahn, and Rayno will find himself fighting the vicarate while trying to assert his control over the Inquisition. He'd have to be elected as the next Grand Inquisitor, and although he wouldn't be a sociopathic megalomaniac like Clyntahn, his cool efficiency might be even worse. The terror of the Inquisition has to be destroyed once and for all, or there's no deal. Rayno's head goes on a pike.

If anyone wants to argue about Rayno, keep in mind that both he and Clyntahn are inquisitors, and thus subject to immediate death, compliments of the EoC.

That's the very minimum starting point for a negotiated truce with the CoGA. No Go4. No Inquisition forcing everyone on Safehold to behave as they demand or be tortured to death. Renouncement of the Punishment, the Question, and the books of Schueler and Chihiro. Acceptance of the CoC as an equally valid path to God, and universal religious tolerance. (Good luck with that in Harchong and Desnair!)

Given these requirements, I think any negotiated peace comes at the point of a bayonet, with an occupying army in Zion and the Temple.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: HFQ Official Snippet #20
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:53 am

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi McGuiness,

Again, kudos for a very well expressed post making many points I wish I could have half so well.

I'm afraid PeterZ's premises presume too much in terms of the alliance willingness to compromise with the very people that ordered the murder, rapine and destruction of their entire countries, NTM the ability of Duchairn to carry out any promises he or Trynair etc makes to the alliance about reforms let alone trying to carry them out in the face of the opposition from all the thousands of the inquisition's remaining agents and members that haven't been caught yet, to name just one very dangerous opposition group.

I don't see Duchairn etc lasting long enough, once any such truce plans were known by the inquisition and others also strongly opposed, to make any lasting commitments in the first place.

L


McGuiness wrote:
PeterZ wrote:The only Vicars untainted with the jihad are dead. All the others voted for the jihad when the Grand Vicar proposed it. Clyntahn would not have let any vicar voting against the jihad to live when he purged the Vicarate. Who would be untouched by the jihad? I suspect no one.

As for Duchairn, wouldn't Nynian have a good idea of Duchairn's mindset? I suspect so.

Bottom line is that an offer for a cease fire from Duchairn to at least discuss minimum requirements for a negotiated peace in person with Cayleb and Stonar would benefit Siddermark most. The few months of truce would let the RSA recruit and equip enough new units to be independent of the ICA. Sure the AoG would also gain more rifles, but the allies would increase their capabilities more.

Siddermark will accept a cease fire in place. Duchairn can convince Cayleb and Stonar that they can achieve their publicly stated goal through negotiations. If the actual negotiations take too long, the allies can begin shooting. I don't see the upside in the allies not listening to the initial (post Clyntahn) offer to negotiate.
Let's not forget Archbishop Cahnyr from Glacierheart, who was a member of the Circle and survived. Several of the younger members of the Circle got out of Zion in time as well, so there actually are a few relatively untainted and very reformist members of the vicarate (or a level or two below the vicarate) who survived Clyntahn's bloodbath and who could be acceptable candidates as vicars, and even Grand Vicar in Cahnyr's case, should the CoGA sue for terms and purge the vicarate.

Yes, Aivah's people in Zion have undoubtedly reported that Duchairn leaves the Temple regularly to visit the soup kitchens and shelters, and is actively working to fund them at the levels needed to help the poor survive the winters, which the vicarate should have been doing all along. I'm not sure what Merlin and Co. will make of those reports if Aivah shares that information with them, since Duchairn's efforts to keep the CoGA afloat financially and his control of the logistics of the war have been key to the successful invasion and occupation of Siddarmark. On one hand he's acting as a priest in tending to his flock, and on the other he's enabling what amounts to genocide. Plus he voted for the initial attack on Charis that kicked off the war in the first place, so his hands are far from clean. Being a member of the Go4 probably makes dealing with him so unpalatable that it simply can't happen - regardless of whatever mischief he and Captain Phandys may have up their cassocks. (That sounds vaguely dirty...) :lol:

Once it becomes clear that the allies are rolling up the armies of the CoGA, Siddarmark is certainly not going to even consider entering into peace talks before it drives the invaders all the way to its borders. (Let's not forget the work camps the allies are about to discover...) Once its troops see those, Siddarmark isn't going to be in much of a mood for talking, and the TLs are in for a very rough time. Emigration may be the best option for every TL in northern and western Siddarmark. The pipes are playing...

You're entirely correct that peace talks won't be offered while Clyntahn is still wheezing, so some sort of coup by a group who wakes up and smells the chocolate will be necessary, unless one of Mab's letters actually leads the Grand Fornicator into having that long-awaited stroke! ;)

Of course that group will also have to fight off the Inquisition, which would be in Rayno's hands should Clyntahn die before he can be sent to Hell properly. (And s-l-o-w-l-y...) :twisted:

A civil war between the Inquisition and the Temple Guard in Zion isn't out of the question. I'm sure a lot of the guard isn't composed of fanatics, and many of them must feel uneasy at best at the Inquisition's behavior. Leak some accounts of what's going on in the "work camps" in Siddarmark, and the unrest is likely to grow. Unlike Clyntahn, the temple guards actually circulate through Zion, so a "careful" barrage of broadsheets could go a long ways towards undermining their support for the Inquisition, and especially for Clyntahn as its leader.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: HFQ Official Snippet #20
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:00 am

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi Don,

Yep, about the only thing the alliance needs when it gets to Zion are the keys to the temple basements.

Nothing Duchairn might offer, will be accepted by the CoGA far right fanatics, who will revolt as soon as they learn his plans.

He very well may have been sabotaging the jihad quite sneakily, but convincing the alliance that his logistic efficiency didn't cost them more lives will be rather hard.

What punishment should he honestly expect?

L


n7axw wrote:I agree with you, Peter, that the vicars untainted by the jihad are dead. Perhaps Nynian proposed the best solution--- hang the lot and start from scratch with a better group of people.

I honestly don't know what a post war COGA looks like apart from making sure they are in no position to impose their will on others.

And I'm not in the "negotiate a truce" camp. I think you overrun Zion, not negotiate with it, and then haul the culprits out of the temple by the scruff of their misbegotten necks. Let the TLs cope with the reality that they thought they were fighting for God and God either lost or was fighting for the other side.

Don
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: HFQ Official Snippet #20
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:19 am

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi PeterZ,

First, Maikel has to get the CoGA's attention since they seemed to have ignored the Tellesberg proclamation regarding the fate of inquisitors a couple years ago when the ICA hadn't kicked their armies butt at all.

No, marching or sailing an army to Zion is the only way to truly get the CoGA adherents' attention.

What he told Paityr Wylsyn back in BSRA was only the first step to destroying the inquisition and the CoGA as he then knew it, since Paityr obviously wasn't ready for the full purpose of the inner circle.

To go that far back, when we and our favorite characters like Paityr have been learning far more since from 'line upon line', is stretching things rather too much.

However much Maikel might want to persuade not compel, the CoGA hasn't been willing to listen, since among other things they would suffer the punishment, and he at least understands that.

He may mourn the loss of life and the suffering the alliance is compelled to meet out to achieve its aims, but those are also certainly his aims, since he has made the argument for the schism from the very beginning.

Given the fervency of the CoGA armies, who won't be seeking to negotiate, I don't think the alliance will have much choice but to overwhelm them.

L


PeterZ wrote:I don't disagree, Don. But the Vicars aren't the end game. The end game is persuading the loyalist population that their devotion to the CoGA is misguided. Marching an army to Zion and compelling the CoGA to accept CoC doctrine smacks too much of Clyntahn. Maikel Staynair argued to Paityr Wylsyn that the inquisition should teach and persuade congregants to follow proper doctrine. I suspect he made that argument to more people that Father Paityr.

If given the chance, Archbishop Maikel will opt to persuade rather than compel. Overrunning the armies of an intransigent CoGA is unavoidable. Overrunning the armies of the CoGA seeking to negotiate is quite another thing.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top
Re: HFQ Official Snippet #20
Post by lyonheart   » Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:36 am

lyonheart
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4853
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 11:27 pm

Hi McGuiness,

Again a great post, and I'm running out of superlatives to express my pleasure, so please feel free to suggest some of your favorites.

A couple caveats if I may; Siddarmark will be involved in any negotiations or decisions made about the future of the temple and the CoGA, because it has suffered the most from the jihad, but most importantly because it is the new continental superpower, extending its influence if not in total complete geographic territory [ie probably not all of the BS and eastern KotTL], from Siddar City to Zion, and nobody is ever going to forget that or that it was Clyntahn's stupidity that brought it about.

Actually, Maikel expressed considerable confidence that most people would not lose their faith in God whenever the Great Reveal occurred, to allay Merlin's concerns which you attributed to Maikel.

L


McGuiness wrote:
PeterZ wrote:I don't disagree, Don. But the Vicars aren't the end game. The end game is persuading the loyalist population that their devotion to the CoGA is misguided. Marching an army to Zion and compelling the CoGA to accept CoC doctrine smacks too much of Clyntahn. Maikel Staynair argued to Paityr Wylsyn that the inquisition should teach and persuade congregants to follow proper doctrine. I suspect he made that argument to more people that Father Paityr.

If given the chance, Archbishop Maikel will opt to persuade rather than compel. Overrunning the armies of an intransigent CoGA is unavoidable. Overrunning the armies of the CoGA seeking to negotiate is quite another thing.
Overrunning armies who are still occupying Siddarmarkan territory and who have murdered/pillaged/raped countless reformists and herded them into "work camps" is quite another. Good luck getting Siddarmark to stop and negotiate while there are still CoGA murderers occupying a single inch of its soil! :x

The EoC may negotiate in Zion or at the Temple itself - given the Millennial return of the archangels, the EoC has to have either control or unrestricted access to the temple before that happens. I'm sure that Staynair will be involved in the religious negotiations, but he knows that the CoGA (and the CoC) are both abominations created to trap mankind on Safehold forever. His approach thus far has been a kind and gentle call for everyone to develop a personal relationship with God. (Oddly enough eliminating the archangels as intermediaries.) ;)

Siddarmark won't be involved in those negotiations. It will be clearing any remnants of CoGA forces, inquisitors, and TLs responsible for the atrocities that occurred during the occupation.

Since the return of the archangels may lead to the Big Reveal, which many of us expect, any changes made to the CoGA may not last long. A reformed abomination is still an abomination. The CoC is merely a kinder and gentler abomination. (Although Staynair has been trying to preach around the Writ by emphasizing God and minimizing the archangels.)

Staynair may be more worried by the Big Reveal than most, since he realizes how many people will cast God aside as being part of the Big Lie, while others will refuse to believe there could be a Big Lie at all. We've been warned that the religious wars that will occur after the truth comes out will be bigger than the current war, probably because numerous schisms will be at each other's throats. So regardless of what Staynair thinks or hopes or negotiates, Safehold is going to experience a wave of religious wars. Throw in a few slave rebellions and things are going to get ugly!
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
Top

Return to Safehold