HFQ Official Snippet #20

McGuiness wrote:snip

So there's this sneaky, underhanded example brewing in Charis now for the rest of Safehold (oh please, Bloody Siddarmark, take note...) for mutual religious toleration across faiths under a single secular government. And in point of fact, no one in government is compelling anyone to choose between the CoC, some variety of Temple Loyalist church that can manage to live with it, some other variety of Reformist Church that can manage to live with it a bit more easily, or even (still essentially hypothetically, outside the Inner Circle) leaving theology behind and staying home on Wednesdays.

If and when people can wrap their heads around that, they can do without bloody religious wars. It takes less than the triumph of the Church of Charis - it just takes its triumph securing space to breathe in a given area.

Tonto Silerheels wrote:JeffEngel wrote:

The usual move is to pick out good thing(s) that are pretty nearly universally considered good...

Yeah, but you told me that I should open my mind to possibilities other than voting.

And it's not something that's compared to a system of morality: these are candidates for that standard against which more concrete systems of morality are judged.

I'm sorry, but you've lost me. What's not something that's compared to a system of morality? The things that are almost universally considered good, the matter-of-fact questions, or the candidates for the standard?

Are you saying that the standard is morality? If so, then how do you choose a moral standard absent a moral system. And if not then how can an amoral standard judge between systems of morality?

Others are a bit more ambitious, with adherents claiming, in effect, if your moral intuitions deliver other answers, the moral intuitions are confused, bad, wrong, or inappropriate.

Yeah, but you told me to open my mind to possibilities other than the existence of elites who have better moral standards than others who are non-elite (I compared that to the Pope.)

Specific virtue theorists have different lists. Just what makes a particular attitude a virtue, a vice, or morally indifferent certainly isn't clear to me - not without using a standard outside virtue theory - but I'm not going to take a position as to whether that's a problem for virtue ethics, for the presentation of virtue ethics, or just my understanding of it. Similarly, how to resolve conflicts among virtues is a problem, but what sort, again, there are similar possibilities.

Yeah, but you told me to open my mind to other possibilities than that every man's morality is equal to every other man's morality.

PeterZ wrote:The only Vicars untainted with the jihad are dead. All the others voted for the jihad when the Grand Vicar proposed it. Clyntahn would not have let any vicar voting against the jihad to live when he purged the Vicarate. Who would be untouched by the jihad? I suspect no one.

** In other words a clean sweep is in order, if Duchairn is going to be honest about things, but do you really expect him to surrender the vicarate and temple etc to the Reformists?

Do you really think all the rest of the corruption that is the CoGA administration would ever let him even try?

So if he did, what is the most obvious and probable reaction by the other 99.99%?

Other posters have pointed to the circle's younger survivors to replace the vicarate etc, although getting them to accept positions in the still corrupt CoGA seems too big of a whopper to swallow.

Convincing them to help prop up the corruption that tortured and killed their friends and murdered millions is too fantastic, in fact it will be something I want to see in RFC's own words before I'll credit it being even in the realm of the possible.

Because I kinda suspect among other things they know it'd all be a sham because they wouldn't be accepted by the rest of the CoGA, especially the remaining hierarchy, unless you have then all executed first, including Duchairn.**


As for Duchairn, wouldn't Nynian have a good idea of Duchairn's mindset? I suspect so.

** That's a given, it doesn't mean it changes the equation enough to twist things your way.

To even try to convince anyone in Siddarmark or the EoC that the rest of the Go4 isn't guilty of procuring and encouraging murdering millions boggles the mind.

From the view of Siddarmark and the EoC Duchairn appears to be doing all he can to make the jihad work.

What kinds of good will gestures do you think Duchairn and CoGA owe Siddarmark and the EoC as preconditions to any offer of a truce?**


Bottom line is that an offer for a cease fire from Duchairn to at least discuss minimum requirements for a negotiated peace in person with Cayleb and Stonar would benefit Siddermark most. The few months of truce would let the RSA recruit and equip enough new units to be independent of the ICA. Sure the AoG would also gain more rifles, but the allies would increase their capabilities more.


** Sorry, the primary limitation on the RSA fielding more rifle divisions has been the bottleneck of rifles to equip more.

Since the EoC should deliver some 250,000 M96's to Siddarmark in 897, so the ICA can then turn their year old Mahndrayns over to the RSA, which in combination with the republic's new production and captured stocks will enable the current 30 division force [15 still training through the spring] to be at least doubled by the end of the year.

There should be no trouble with maintaining the RSA's division-making machine at the same pace in 898, and the best RSA divisions could receive M96's that year as well.

Given the alliance's superior weapons, no pause to reorganize and improve training etc while letting the enemy regains some of his strength is necessary nor wise.

The idea the Lord Protector and his ministers, NTM who suffered from the SoS is willing to give the CoGA another chance to kill or destroy the republic seems to be from smoking something that's still generally illegal in this country.

From the textev I find it exceedingly difficult to imagine any of the characters you mention arguing your case, especially with your ridiculously fanatical fervor.

Secondly you claim that such a short peace period would enable the RSA to become independent of the ICA.

Really?

Why is that so immediately important to you?

The time to fully reorganize and retrain the RSA to fully exploit the experience and capabilities the ICA has developed will take years, not a few month's; NTM since technically, starting such changes could make things worse.

The Lord Protector and his ministers know that better than you apparently, and would never be so brain dead as to fooled by such stupidity.

Given how important the alliance is to the future plans of Merlin and the inner circle, why do you want to subvert it as soon as possible?

Claiming such silliness when you know any pause would help the CoGA more is deceitful.**


Siddermark will accept a cease fire in place. Duchairn can convince Cayleb and Stonar that they can achieve their publically stated goal through negotiations. If the actual negotiations take too long, the allies can begin shooting. I don't see the upside in the allies not listening to the initial (post Clyntahn) offer to negotiate.


** Seriously?

On what basis can you claim that Siddarmark will accept a cease fire in place?

Or that Duchairn can convince Cayleb and Stohnar etc, other than you wish it?

Can you list what the alliance war aims are, since we've never had them listed?

The very idea of Siddarmark accepting a cease fire in place is ludicrous if not pathetic.

Duchairn may want to negotiate because he recognizes how desperate the CoGA situation is, but that doesn't mean he'll be able to.

Again, the CoGA far fanatical right will insist on continuing the fight, ie "no truce with heretics" etc; and how will Duchairn stop them when he doesn't have an army left any more?

L

**

n7axw wrote:*quote="PeterZ"*

Of course they are accessories. Yet, if they are willing to truly reform and execute reforms that Reformists will be happy with, can they be worked with? I suspect the CoC and Reformists will agree to work with them. Perhaps, their punishments if any will be part of the resultant negotiated reforms. Depending on the conditions at the time of the cease fire, this might well be a viable alternative to all parties involved.*quote*

No, I think they have to go and someone untainted by the jihad has to step up. I'm not saying that they should automaticly face execution, but they should face whatever penalty that the allies decide justice demands after a fair trial and be deprived of their positions. They have been too much a part of the problem to be part of the solution.

Don

PeterZ wrote:No negotiations will put the CoC on an equal footing with the CoGA. Only a sound theological argument can do that. The Corisandian reformist priest killed in front of his Church presented such an argument. He persuaded his congregation with that argument. Making that argument from behind a bayonet will only focus loyalist minds on the use of force. It effectively equates Clyntahn's us of force with the Allies. Sure Clyntahn was more brutal and ruthless. But his use of force and compulsion is not inherently evil or wrong.

Bringing peace through mutually agreed upon negotiations on the other hand will emphasize the qualitative difference between Clyntahn and the Allies. The fundamental rightness/goodness of the CoC position is emphasized by their gaining willing cooperation from their enemies not a fearful compliance.

McGuiness wrote:snip

If anyone wants to argue about Rayno, keep in mind that both he and Clyntahn are inquisitors, and thus subject to immediate death, compliments of the EoC.

That's the very minimum starting point for a negotiated truce with the CoGA. No Go4. No Inquisition forcing everyone on Safehold to behave as they demand or be tortured to death. Renouncement of the Punishment, the Question, and the books of Schueler and Chihiro. Acceptance of the CoC as an equally valid path to God, and universal religious tolerance. (Good luck with that in Harchong and Desnair!)

Given these requirements, I think any negotiated peace comes at the point of a bayonet, with an occupying army in Zion and the Temple.

McGuiness wrote:

PeterZ wrote:*quote="n7axw"*I agree that that the "final solution to the Charisian problem" and the jihad were born of out of Clyntahn's vision. So also his policies drove the inquisition's atrocities.

But Traynair, Duchairn and Magwair were right alongside of Clyntahn enabling his behavior and working to make those policies succeed. I know that Duchairn and to a lesser extent Magwair have been developed as sympathetic characters in the more recent books. But for me, that doesn't change a thing. They are accessory to Clyntahn's crimes and belong in the dock with him.

Don*quote*Of course they are accessories. Yet, if they are willing to truly reform and execute reforms that Reformists will be happy with, can they be worked with? I suspect the CoC and Reformists will agree to work with them. Perhaps, their punishments if any will be part of the resultant negotiated reforms. Depending on the conditions at the time of the cease fire, this might well be a viable alternative to all parties involved.

I think the only possibility for a negotiated peace will require the heads of the Go4. I also expect Duchairn will try "something" which will result in one of more of them dying, possibly himself.

The allies have no idea that Duchairn has rekindled his personal faith, but without his coordination of the Church's logistics and juggling of its finances, the land war would have foundered before it got started. He could be safely sent to finish out his life in a secluded monastery, but the allies don't know that, and his actions have led to the deaths of tens of thousands in Siddarmark (at the very least!) by making the war possible, and they're going to lead to a lot more deaths before the war is over. His head goes on a pike.

Magwair may be wising up and is certainly a smarter guy today than he was at the beginning of the series, but he's leading the jihad with no reservations. His head goes on a pike.

Trynair generated the support among the vicarate for the initial strike on Charis in OAR, and has kept their support all the way to the jihad being declared, aided by the wave of terror that Clyntahn generated when he executed the members of the Circle and all their relatives. Even though he's basically been riding the slash lizard ever since, his head goes on a pike.

Clyntahn of course needs to be impaled on a short spike! (For those unfamiliar with the term, the body is seated and impaled alive on a spike buried in the ground that penetrates the internal organs. It takes quite a while to die...)

Remove Clyntahn, and Rayno will find himself fighting the vicarate while trying to assert his control over the Inquisition. He'd have to be elected as the next Grand Inquisitor, and although he wouldn't be a sociopathic megalomaniac like Clyntahn, his cool efficiency might be even worse. The terror of the Inquisition has to be destroyed once and for all, or there's no deal. Rayno's head goes on a pike.

If anyone wants to argue about Rayno, keep in mind that both he and Clyntahn are inquisitors, and thus subject to immediate death, compliments of the EoC.

That's the very minimum starting point for a negotiated truce with the CoGA. No Go4. No Inquisition forcing everyone on Safehold to behave as they demand or be tortured to death. Renouncement of the Punishment, the Question, and the books of Schueler and Chihiro. Acceptance of the CoC as an equally valid path to God, and universal religious tolerance. (Good luck with that in Harchong and Desnair!)

Given these requirements, I think any negotiated peace comes at the point of a bayonet, with an occupying army in Zion and the Temple.

McGuiness wrote:

PeterZ wrote:The only Vicars untainted with the jihad are dead. All the others voted for the jihad when the Grand Vicar proposed it. Clyntahn would not have let any vicar voting against the jihad to live when he purged the Vicarate. Who would be untouched by the jihad? I suspect no one.

As for Duchairn, wouldn't Nynian have a good idea of Duchairn's mindset? I suspect so.

Bottom line is that an offer for a cease fire from Duchairn to at least discuss minimum requirements for a negotiated peace in person with Cayleb and Stonar would benefit Siddermark most. The few months of truce would let the RSA recruit and equip enough new units to be independent of the ICA. Sure the AoG would also gain more rifles, but the allies would increase their capabilities more.

Siddermark will accept a cease fire in place. Duchairn can convince Cayleb and Stonar that they can achieve their publicly stated goal through negotiations. If the actual negotiations take too long, the allies can begin shooting. I don't see the upside in the allies not listening to the initial (post Clyntahn) offer to negotiate.

Let's not forget Archbishop Cahnyr from Glacierheart, who was a member of the Circle and survived. Several of the younger members of the Circle got out of Zion in time as well, so there actually are a few relatively untainted and very reformist members of the vicarate (or a level or two below the vicarate) who survived Clyntahn's bloodbath and who could be acceptable candidates as vicars, and even Grand Vicar in Cahnyr's case, should the CoGA sue for terms and purge the vicarate.

Yes, Aivah's people in Zion have undoubtedly reported that Duchairn leaves the Temple regularly to visit the soup kitchens and shelters, and is actively working to fund them at the levels needed to help the poor survive the winters, which the vicarate should have been doing all along. I'm not sure what Merlin and Co. will make of those reports if Aivah shares that information with them, since Duchairn's efforts to keep the CoGA afloat financially and his control of the logistics of the war have been key to the successful invasion and occupation of Siddarmark. On one hand he's acting as a priest in tending to his flock, and on the other he's enabling what amounts to genocide. Plus he voted for the initial attack on Charis that kicked off the war in the first place, so his hands are far from clean. Being a member of the Go4 probably makes dealing with him so unpalatable that it simply can't happen - regardless of whatever mischief he and Captain Phandys may have up their cassocks. (That sounds vaguely dirty...)

Once it becomes clear that the allies are rolling up the armies of the CoGA, Siddarmark is certainly not going to even consider entering into peace talks before it drives the invaders all the way to its borders. (Let's not forget the work camps the allies are about to discover...) Once its troops see those, Siddarmark isn't going to be in much of a mood for talking, and the TLs are in for a very rough time. Emigration may be the best option for every TL in northern and western Siddarmark. The pipes are playing...

You're entirely correct that peace talks won't be offered while Clyntahn is still wheezing, so some sort of coup by a group who wakes up and smells the chocolate will be necessary, unless one of Mab's letters actually leads the Grand Fornicator into having that long-awaited stroke!

Of course that group will also have to fight off the Inquisition, which would be in Rayno's hands should Clyntahn die before he can be sent to Hell properly. (And s-l-o-w-l-y...)

A civil war between the Inquisition and the Temple Guard in Zion isn't out of the question. I'm sure a lot of the guard isn't composed of fanatics, and many of them must feel uneasy at best at the Inquisition's behavior. Leak some accounts of what's going on in the "work camps" in Siddarmark, and the unrest is likely to grow. Unlike Clyntahn, the temple guards actually circulate through Zion, so a "careful" barrage of broadsheets could go a long ways towards undermining their support for the Inquisition, and especially for Clyntahn as its leader.

n7axw wrote:I agree with you, Peter, that the vicars untainted by the jihad are dead. Perhaps Nynian proposed the best solution--- hang the lot and start from scratch with a better group of people.

I honestly don't know what a post war COGA looks like apart from making sure they are in no position to impose their will on others.

And I'm not in the "negotiate a truce" camp. I think you overrun Zion, not negotiate with it, and then haul the culprits out of the temple by the scruff of their misbegotten necks. Let the TLs cope with the reality that they thought they were fighting for God and God either lost or was fighting for the other side.

Don

PeterZ wrote:I don't disagree, Don. But the Vicars aren't the end game. The end game is persuading the loyalist population that their devotion to the CoGA is misguided. Marching an army to Zion and compelling the CoGA to accept CoC doctrine smacks too much of Clyntahn. Maikel Staynair argued to Paityr Wylsyn that the inquisition should teach and persuade congregants to follow proper doctrine. I suspect he made that argument to more people that Father Paityr.

If given the chance, Archbishop Maikel will opt to persuade rather than compel. Overrunning the armies of an intransigent CoGA is unavoidable. Overrunning the armies of the CoGA seeking to negotiate is quite another thing.

McGuiness wrote:

PeterZ wrote:I don't disagree, Don. But the Vicars aren't the end game. The end game is persuading the loyalist population that their devotion to the CoGA is misguided. Marching an army to Zion and compelling the CoGA to accept CoC doctrine smacks too much of Clyntahn. Maikel Staynair argued to Paityr Wylsyn that the inquisition should teach and persuade congregants to follow proper doctrine. I suspect he made that argument to more people that Father Paityr.

If given the chance, Archbishop Maikel will opt to persuade rather than compel. Overrunning the armies of an intransigent CoGA is unavoidable. Overrunning the armies of the CoGA seeking to negotiate is quite another thing.

Overrunning armies who are still occupying Siddarmarkan territory and who have murdered/pillaged/raped countless reformists and herded them into "work camps" is quite another. Good luck getting Siddarmark to stop and negotiate while there are still CoGA murderers occupying a single inch of its soil!

The EoC may negotiate in Zion or at the Temple itself - given the Millennial return of the archangels, the EoC has to have either control or unrestricted access to the temple before that happens. I'm sure that Staynair will be involved in the religious negotiations, but he knows that the CoGA (and the CoC) are both abominations created to trap mankind on Safehold forever. His approach thus far has been a kind and gentle call for everyone to develop a personal relationship with God. (Oddly enough eliminating the archangels as intermediaries.)

Siddarmark won't be involved in those negotiations. It will be clearing any remnants of CoGA forces, inquisitors, and TLs responsible for the atrocities that occurred during the occupation.

Since the return of the archangels may lead to the Big Reveal, which many of us expect, any changes made to the CoGA may not last long. A reformed abomination is still an abomination. The CoC is merely a kinder and gentler abomination. (Although Staynair has been trying to preach around the Writ by emphasizing God and minimizing the archangels.)

Staynair may be more worried by the Big Reveal than most, since he realizes how many people will cast God aside as being part of the Big Lie, while others will refuse to believe there could be a Big Lie at all. We've been warned that the religious wars that will occur after the truth comes out will be bigger than the current war, probably because numerous schisms will be at each other's throats. So regardless of what Staynair thinks or hopes or negotiates, Safehold is going to experience a wave of religious wars. Throw in a few slave rebellions and things are going to get ugly!