HFQ Official Snippet #20

PeterZ wrote:The only Vicars untainted with the jihad are dead. All the others voted for the jihad when the Grand Vicar proposed it. Clyntahn would not have let any vicar voting against the jihad to live when he purged the Vicarate. Who would be untouched by the jihad? I suspect no one.

As for Duchairn, wouldn't Nynian have a good idea of Duchairn's mindset? I suspect so.

Bottom line is that an offer for a cease fire from Duchairn to at least discuss minimum requirements for a negotiated peace in person with Cayleb and Stonar would benefit Siddermark most. The few months of truce would let the RSA recruit and equip enough new units to be independent of the ICA. Sure the AoG would also gain more rifles, but the allies would increase their capabilities more.

Siddermark will accept a cease fire in place. Duchairn can convince Cayleb and Stonar that they can achieve their publicly stated goal through negotiations. If the actual negotiations take too long, the allies can begin shooting. I don't see the upside in the allies not listening to the initial (post Clyntahn) offer to negotiate.

Let's not forget Archbishop Cahnyr from Glacierheart, who was a member of the Circle and survived. Several of the younger members of the Circle got out of Zion in time as well, so there actually are a few relatively untainted and very reformist members of the vicarate (or a level or two below the vicarate) who survived Clyntahn's bloodbath and who could be acceptable candidates as vicars, and even Grand Vicar in Cahnyr's case, should the CoGA sue for terms and purge the vicarate.

Yes, Aivah's people in Zion have undoubtedly reported that Duchairn leaves the Temple regularly to visit the soup kitchens and shelters, and is actively working to fund them at the levels needed to help the poor survive the winters, which the vicarate should have been doing all along. I'm not sure what Merlin and Co. will make of those reports if Aivah shares that information with them, since Duchairn's efforts to keep the CoGA afloat financially and his control of the logistics of the war have been key to the successful invasion and occupation of Siddarmark. On one hand he's acting as a priest in tending to his flock, and on the other he's enabling what amounts to genocide. Plus he voted for the initial attack on Charis that kicked off the war in the first place, so his hands are far from clean. Being a member of the Go4 probably makes dealing with him so unpalatable that it simply can't happen - regardless of whatever mischief he and Captain Phandys may have up their cassocks. (That sounds vaguely dirty...)

Once it becomes clear that the allies are rolling up the armies of the CoGA, Siddarmark is certainly not going to even consider entering into peace talks before it drives the invaders all the way to its borders. (Let's not forget the work camps the allies are about to discover...) Once its troops see those, Siddarmark isn't going to be in much of a mood for talking, and the TLs are in for a very rough time. Emigration may be the best option for every TL in northern and western Siddarmark. The pipes are playing...

You're entirely correct that peace talks won't be offered while Clyntahn is still wheezing, so some sort of coup by a group who wakes up and smells the chocolate will be necessary, unless one of Mab's letters actually leads the Grand Fornicator into having that long-awaited stroke!

Of course that group will also have to fight off the Inquisition, which would be in Rayno's hands should Clyntahn die before he can be sent to Hell properly. (And s-l-o-w-l-y...)

A civil war between the Inquisition and the Temple Guard in Zion isn't out of the question. I'm sure a lot of the guard isn't composed of fanatics, and many of them must feel uneasy at best at the Inquisition's behavior. Leak some accounts of what's going on in the "work camps" in Siddarmark, and the unrest is likely to grow. Unlike Clyntahn, the temple guards actually circulate through Zion, so a "careful" barrage of broadsheets could go a long ways towards undermining their support for the Inquisition, and especially for Clyntahn as its leader.

I agree with you, Peter, that the vicars untainted by the jihad are dead. Perhaps Nynian proposed the best solution--- hang the lot and start from scratch with a better group of people.

I honestly don't know what a post war COGA looks like apart from making sure they are in no position to impose their will on others.

And I'm not in the "negotiate a truce" camp. I think you overrun Zion, not negotiate with it, and then haul the culprits out of the temple by the scruff of their misbegotten necks. Let the TLs cope with the reality that they thought they were fighting for God and God either lost or was fighting for the other side.

Don

I don't disagree, Don. But the Vicars aren't the end game. The end game is persuading the loyalist population that their devotion to the CoGA is misguided. Marching an army to Zion and compelling the CoGA to accept CoC doctrine smacks too much of Clyntahn. Maikel Staynair argued to Paityr Wylsyn that the inquisition should teach and persuade congregants to follow proper doctrine. I suspect he made that argument to more people that Father Paityr.

If given the chance, Archbishop Maikel will opt to persuade rather than compel. Overrunning the armies of an intransigent CoGA is unavoidable. Overrunning the armies of the CoGA seeking to negotiate is quite another thing.

PeterZ wrote:I don't disagree, Don. But the Vicars aren't the end game. The end game is persuading the loyalist population that their devotion to the CoGA is misguided. Marching an army to Zion and compelling the CoGA to accept CoC doctrine smacks too much of Clyntahn. Maikel Staynair argued to Paityr Wylsyn that the inquisition should teach and persuade congregants to follow proper doctrine. I suspect he made that argument to more people that Father Paityr.

If given the chance, Archbishop Maikel will opt to persuade rather than compel. Overrunning the armies of an intransigent CoGA is unavoidable. Overrunning the armies of the CoGA seeking to negotiate is quite another thing.

Overrunning armies who are still occupying Siddarmarkan territory and who have murdered/pillaged/raped countless reformists and herded them into "work camps" is quite another. Good luck getting Siddarmark to stop and negotiate while there are still CoGA murderers occupying a single inch of its soil!

The EoC may negotiate in Zion or at the Temple itself - given the Millennial return of the archangels, the EoC has to have either control or unrestricted access to the temple before that happens. I'm sure that Staynair will be involved in the religious negotiations, but he knows that the CoGA (and the CoC) are both abominations created to trap mankind on Safehold forever. His approach thus far has been a kind and gentle call for everyone to develop a personal relationship with God. (Oddly enough eliminating the archangels as intermediaries.)

Siddarmark won't be involved in those negotiations. It will be clearing any remnants of CoGA forces, inquisitors, and TLs responsible for the atrocities that occurred during the occupation.

Since the return of the archangels may lead to the Big Reveal, which many of us expect, any changes made to the CoGA may not last long. A reformed abomination is still an abomination. The CoC is merely a kinder and gentler abomination. (Although Staynair has been trying to preach around the Writ by emphasizing God and minimizing the archangels.)

Staynair may be more worried by the Big Reveal than most, since he realizes how many people will cast God aside as being part of the Big Lie, while others will refuse to believe there could be a Big Lie at all. We've been warned that the religious wars that will occur after the truth comes out will be bigger than the current war, probably because numerous schisms will be at each other's throats. So regardless of what Staynair thinks or hopes or negotiates, Safehold is going to experience a wave of religious wars. Throw in a few slave rebellions and things are going to get ugly!

Peter2 wrote:
There have been all sorts of governments, but From what I can see, those where ultimate power has been in the hands of the priesthood were far and away the worst. The ability to shift accountability for their actions on to the shoulders of their God(s) seemed to relieve their consciences of any burden of responsibility for the most heinous crimes. They could put their hands on their hearts and say "God wills it" to justify the vilest actions.

That kind of anti-religious allegation is often bandied around these days. Then I think of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and even Mao, the devastation they caused and the millions of deaths they were responsible for, and wonder which religious 'governments' were so overwhelmingly worse than them. Have you any suggestions? Or are you willing to apologise for that piece of anti-religious prejudice?

PeterZ wrote:
If given the chance, Archbishop Maikel will opt to persuade rather than compel. Overrunning the armies of an intransigent CoGA is unavoidable. Overrunning the armies of the CoGA seeking to negotiate is quite another thing.

Don't 'persuade' and 'compel' kind of run into one another when the persuasion is done at the end of a war the persuaders are about to convincingly win? And let's not kid ourselves that the other side will be considering negotiations until that is the case. Even Duchairn still thinks the CoGA's theological stance and position in society are right and God-ordained. He hates the war and many of the hierarchy's attitudes and actions, but he believes in the Church; it may have lost its way but hasn't lost its mandate to care for and guide all of God's children on Safehold.

Randomiser wrote:

Peter2 wrote:
There have been all sorts of governments, but From what I can see, those where ultimate power has been in the hands of the priesthood were far and away the worst. The ability to shift accountability for their actions on to the shoulders of their God(s) seemed to relieve their consciences of any burden of responsibility for the most heinous crimes. They could put their hands on their hearts and say "God wills it" to justify the vilest actions.

That kind of anti-religious allegation is often bandied around these days. Then I think of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and even Mao, the devastation they caused and the millions of deaths they were responsible for, and wonder which religious 'governments' were so overwhelmingly worse than them. Have you any suggestions? Or are you willing to apologise for that piece of anti-religious prejudice?

Aren't "Marxism" and "Marxism/Leninism" religions to their deluded supporters?

Randomiser wrote:

Peter2 wrote:
There have been all sorts of governments, but From what I can see, those where ultimate power has been in the hands of the priesthood were far and away the worst. The ability to shift accountability for their actions on to the shoulders of their God(s) seemed to relieve their consciences of any burden of responsibility for the most heinous crimes. They could put their hands on their hearts and say "God wills it" to justify the vilest actions.

That kind of anti-religious allegation is often bandied around these days. Then I think of Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and even Mao, the devastation they caused and the millions of deaths they were responsible for, and wonder which religious 'governments' were so overwhelmingly worse than them. Have you any suggestions? Or are you willing to apologise for that piece of anti-religious prejudice?

You either did not read what I wrote, or read things into it that are not there. I used the phrase "ultimate power" – please note the word ultimate. I neither said nor implied – and nor do I believe – that religions should be powerless. On the contrary, I consider most of them (certainly the ones I know well) to be considerable and significant forces for good. But I maintain, as I said, that "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely," and when that absolute (i.e. "ultimate") power rests with people who feel justified in shifting responsibility for their actions on to the shoulders of their God(s), there is a greater probability for it to be exercised with less restraint. I stand by what I wrote.

Of course the Church is still mandated to care for all of God's children. The CoGA hierarchy has failed this charge. The CoC hierarchy has not. Making the argument that God accepts the CoC as part of His Church is part of the theological negotiations that must happen. Would it be more persuasive for the devout loyalist to have this discussion when the CoGA still have some choices or after all their choices have been destroyed?

Personally, I believe that holding those discussions before all is lost emphasizes the importance of the negotiations. That the negotiations might yet save something that otherwise would be lost.

Randomiser wrote:
Don't 'persuade' and 'compel' kind of run into one another when the persuasion is done at the end of a war the persuaders are about to convincingly win? And let's not kid ourselves that the other side will be considering negotiations until that is the case. Even Duchairn still thinks the CoGA's theological stance and position in society are right and God-ordained. He hates the war and many of the hierarchy's attitudes and actions, but he believes in the Church; it may have lost its way but hasn't lost its mandate to care for and guide all of God's children on Safehold.

McGuiness wrote:The EoC may negotiate in Zion or at the Temple itself - given the Millennial return of the archangels, the EoC has to have either control or unrestricted access to the temple before that happens. I'm sure that Staynair will be involved in the religious negotiations, but he knows that the CoGA (and the CoC) are both abominations created to trap mankind on Safehold forever. His approach thus far has been a kind and gentle call for everyone to develop a personal relationship with God. (Oddly enough eliminating the archangels as intermediaries.)

Siddarmark won't be involved in those negotiations. It will be clearing any remnants of CoGA forces, inquisitors, and TLs responsible for the atrocities that occurred during the occupation.

Since the return of the archangels may lead to the Big Reveal, which many of us expect, any changes made to the CoGA may not last long. A reformed abomination is still an abomination. The CoC is merely a kinder and gentler abomination. (Although Staynair has been trying to preach around the Writ by emphasizing God and minimizing the archangels.)

Staynair may be more worried by the Big Reveal than most, since he realizes how many people will cast God aside as being part of the Big Lie, while others will refuse to believe there could be a Big Lie at all. We've been warned that the religious wars that will occur after the truth comes out will be bigger than the current war, probably because numerous schisms will be at each other's throats. So regardless of what Staynair thinks or hopes or negotiates, Safehold is going to experience a wave of religious wars. Throw in a few slave rebellions and things are going to get ugly!

Staynair can't accomplish all he'd like to before the Reveal, or immediately even if that happened tomorrow. He'd like to take the role of force out of matters of conscience (which will mean not only no more Inquisition, but also no more secular power out of the Church), and he'd like to keep the very ideas of God and religion from being smeared with the Reveal and all the crap heaped on it by the likes of Langhorne and Clyntahn.

The Church of Charis may still be an abomination, but it's taking steps in that direction: de-emphasizing the Writ elements that are nothing but fiction to serve Langhorne's program; casting the role of the Church as to teach and support rather than terrorize and compel; perhaps distancing the Church's "secular" functions (medicine, law, teaching, social welfare) from its theological ones; and setting up a certain distance (by Safehold standards!) between it and the government. Get that kind of approach accepted, and you're closer to getting Langhorne's model rejected.

Even the Temple Loyalists in Charis (and the whole Loyalist through Reformist spectrum short of the CoC elsewhere in the Empire) are now having to be loyal (if grudgingly) to a state that does not have the imprimatur of their Church, and to deny the Temple their service as fanatic assassins against the Empire. So they're getting used to that kind of familiar-to-us dual loyalty even without it being (yet) a part of their formal, acknowledged belief system.

So there's this sneaky, underhanded example brewing in Charis now for the rest of Safehold (oh please, Bloody Siddarmark, take note...) for mutual religious toleration across faiths under a single secular government. And in point of fact, no one in government is compelling anyone to choose between the CoC, some variety of Temple Loyalist church that can manage to live with it, some other variety of Reformist Church that can manage to live with it a bit more easily, or even (still essentially hypothetically, outside the Inner Circle) leaving theology behind and staying home on Wednesdays.

If and when people can wrap their heads around that, they can do without bloody religious wars. It takes less than the triumph of the Church of Charis - it just takes its triumph securing space to breathe in a given area.