HFQ Official Snippet #20

PeterZ wrote:I tend to agree with you that the CoC won't likely have any influence over the CoGA short of complete victory resulting in capturing Zion.

My point is that if Clyntahn is held as the principal cause of the jihad, Duchairn and Magwair can conceivably blame him for instigating an unjust jihad. It was Clyntahn's abuse of power that forced Charis to separate from the CoGA and that continued abuse that has made mending the schism impossible at present.

So, in an effort to heal that schism the CoGA must reform itself. Reform must begin with the Inquisition. A reasonable place to start is to revert to the original separation of powers between defining heresy and prosecuting it. Yet, reform does not mean the abusers of power within the Inquisition are forgiven their excesses. Charges of Inquisition misconduct must be investigated. Representation of investigators must be distributed between Refromists, Loyalists and CoC clergy/representatives.

If the allies were offered something like this, enough would be interested that Cayleb and Sharley would have to enter negotiations.

lyonheart wrote:Hi PeterZ,

I agree the inner circle hasn't told everyone its ultimate plans, but I think the average CoC or reformist knows the CoGA has been corrupt for centuries, that the Go4 and Clyntahn are only symptoms of that corruption not recent aberrations, so the idea only the Inquisition needs some correction isn't going to be acceptable to any of them with a brain.

Given that Zhasyn Cahnyr was a member of the circle for around 20 years, and friends with all those that were killed and or tortured, which constantly waited for what it hoped would be its opportunity to fix things; I very strongly doubt that now when he has the power or influence to truly change the CoGA rather more than slightly or moderately, he's going to back off and and settle for promises to make the Inquisition better.

Getting the CoGA to accept the CoC and reformists, when the former has effectively disavowed the book of Schueler etc, would be very interesting if RFC were to follow your assumptions, but I don't think he has time in the story arc for such sub plots.

snip
L

I agree that that the "final solution to the Charisian problem" and the jihad were born of out of Clyntahn's vision. So also his policies drove the inquisition's atrocities.

But Traynair, Duchairn and Magwair were right alongside of Clyntahn enabling his behavior and working to make those policies succeed. I know that Duchairn and to a lesser extent Magwair have been developed as sympathetic characters in the more recent books. But for me, that doesn't change a thing. They are accessory to Clyntahn's crimes and belong in the dock with him.

Don

n7axw wrote:

But Traynair, Duchairn and Magwair were right alongside of Clyntahn enabling his behavior and working to make those policies succeed.

I agree. In fact I would go a step further by saying that the Church of God Awaiting organization is fatally flawed. It virtually guarantees that evil people will gain the reins, so it must be dismantled. The organization that Staynair has put together is a possible solution.

~Tonto

Tonto Silerheels wrote:n7axw wrote:

But Traynair, Duchairn and Magwair were right alongside of Clyntahn enabling his behavior and working to make those policies succeed.

I agree. In fact I would go a step further by saying that the Church of God Awaiting organization is fatally flawed. It virtually guarantees that evil people will gain the reins, so it must be dismantled. The organization that Staynair has put together is a possible solution.

~Tonto

I think that the important thing is not how it is organized so much as as its political and coercive power be taken away, forcing it to appeal to the heart like any other valid church or religious organization.

Don

n7axw wrote:

Tonto Silerheels wrote:n7axw wrote:

But Traynair, Duchairn and Magwair were right alongside of Clyntahn enabling his behavior and working to make those policies succeed.

I agree. In fact I would go a step further by saying that the Church of God Awaiting organization is fatally flawed. It virtually guarantees that evil people will gain the reins, so it must be dismantled. The organization that Staynair has put together is a possible solution.

~Tonto

I think that the important thing is not how it is organized so much as as its political and coercive power be taken away, forcing it to appeal to the heart like any other valid church or religious organization.

Don

I totally agree with you both. How the reform happens still has to be decided. At one point the decision will be put to the Vicarate: submit to a negotiated reform process or have one imposed on it by force after the allies shred what remains of the jihadi armies and occupy Zion.

n7axw wrote:
I agree that that the "final solution to the Charisian problem" and the jihad were born of out of Clyntahn's vision. So also his policies drove the inquisition's atrocities.

But Traynair, Duchairn and Magwair were right alongside of Clyntahn enabling his behavior and working to make those policies succeed. I know that Duchairn and to a lesser extent Magwair have been developed as sympathetic characters in the more recent books. But for me, that doesn't change a thing. They are accessory to Clyntahn's crimes and belong in the dock with him.

Don

Of course they are accessories. Yet, if they are willing to truly reform and execute reforms that Reformists will be happy with, can they be worked with? I suspect the CoC and Reformists will agree to work with them. Perhaps, their punishments if any will be part of the resultant negotiated reforms. Depending on the conditions at the time of the cease fire, this might well be a viable alternative to all parties involved.

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:
I agree that that the "final solution to the Charisian problem" and the jihad were born of out of Clyntahn's vision. So also his policies drove the inquisition's atrocities.

But Traynair, Duchairn and Magwair were right alongside of Clyntahn enabling his behavior and working to make those policies succeed. I know that Duchairn and to a lesser extent Magwair have been developed as sympathetic characters in the more recent books. But for me, that doesn't change a thing. They are accessory to Clyntahn's crimes and belong in the dock with him.

Don

Of course they are accessories. Yet, if they are willing to truly reform and execute reforms that Reformists will be happy with, can they be worked with? I suspect the CoC and Reformists will agree to work with them. Perhaps, their punishments if any will be part of the resultant negotiated reforms. Depending on the conditions at the time of the cease fire, this might well be a viable alternative to all parties involved.

No, I think they have to go and someone untainted by the jihad has to step up. I'm not saying that they should automaticly face execution, but they should face whatever penalty that the allies decide justice demands after a fair trial and be deprived of their positions. They have been too much a part of the problem to be part of the solution.

Don

PeterZ wrote:

n7axw wrote:I agree that that the "final solution to the Charisian problem" and the jihad were born of out of Clyntahn's vision. So also his policies drove the inquisition's atrocities.

But Traynair, Duchairn and Magwair were right alongside of Clyntahn enabling his behavior and working to make those policies succeed. I know that Duchairn and to a lesser extent Magwair have been developed as sympathetic characters in the more recent books. But for me, that doesn't change a thing. They are accessory to Clyntahn's crimes and belong in the dock with him.

Don

Of course they are accessories. Yet, if they are willing to truly reform and execute reforms that Reformists will be happy with, can they be worked with? I suspect the CoC and Reformists will agree to work with them. Perhaps, their punishments if any will be part of the resultant negotiated reforms. Depending on the conditions at the time of the cease fire, this might well be a viable alternative to all parties involved.

I think the only possibility for a negotiated peace will require the heads of the Go4. I also expect Duchairn will try "something" which will result in one of more of them dying, possibly himself.

The allies have no idea that Duchairn has rekindled his personal faith, but without his coordination of the Church's logistics and juggling of its finances, the land war would have foundered before it got started. He could be safely sent to finish out his life in a secluded monastery, but the allies don't know that, and his actions have led to the deaths of tens of thousands in Siddarmark (at the very least!) by making the war possible, and they're going to lead to a lot more deaths before the war is over. His head goes on a pike.

Magwair may be wising up and is certainly a smarter guy today than he was at the beginning of the series, but he's leading the jihad with no reservations. His head goes on a pike.

Trynair generated the support among the vicarate for the initial strike on Charis in OAR, and has kept their support all the way to the jihad being declared, aided by the wave of terror that Clyntahn generated when he executed the members of the Circle and all their relatives. Even though he's basically been riding the slash lizard ever since, his head goes on a pike.

Clyntahn of course needs to be impaled on a short spike! (For those unfamiliar with the term, the body is seated and impaled alive on a spike buried in the ground that penetrates the internal organs. It takes quite a while to die...)

Remove Clyntahn, and Rayno will find himself fighting the vicarate while trying to assert his control over the Inquisition. He'd have to be elected as the next Grand Inquisitor, and although he wouldn't be a sociopathic megalomaniac like Clyntahn, his cool efficiency might be even worse. The terror of the Inquisition has to be destroyed once and for all, or there's no deal. Rayno's head goes on a pike.

If anyone wants to argue about Rayno, keep in mind that both he and Clyntahn are inquisitors, and thus subject to immediate death, compliments of the EoC.

That's the very minimum starting point for a negotiated truce with the CoGA. No Go4. No Inquisition forcing everyone on Safehold to behave as they demand or be tortured to death. Renouncement of the Punishment, the Question, and the books of Schueler and Chihiro. Acceptance of the CoC as an equally valid path to God, and universal religious tolerance. (Good luck with that in Harchong and Desnair!)

Given these requirements, I think any negotiated peace comes at the point of a bayonet, with an occupying army in Zion and the Temple.

n7axw wrote:

Tonto Silerheels wrote:n7axw wrote:

But Traynair, Duchairn and Magwair were right alongside of Clyntahn enabling his behavior and working to make those policies succeed.

I agree. In fact I would go a step further by saying that the Church of God Awaiting organization is fatally flawed. It virtually guarantees that evil people will gain the reins, so it must be dismantled. The organization that Staynair has put together is a possible solution.

~Tonto

I think that the important thing is not how it is organized so much as as its political and coercive power be taken away, forcing it to appeal to the heart like any other valid church or religious organization.

Don

I agree wholeheartedly with you, Don. I read somewhere (C M Kornbluth, possibly??) a diatribe that said in part something like "Cursed be all saviours of mankind, for on their shoulders rest the blackest parts of history".

There have been all sorts of governments, but From what I can see, those where ultimate power has been in the hands of the priesthood were far and away the worst. The ability to shift accountability for their actions on to the shoulders of their God(s) seemed to relieve their consciences of any burden of responsibility for the most heinous crimes. They could put their hands on their hearts and say "God wills it" to justify the vilest actions.

I believe that every man is entitled to his or her own beliefs, that he has no right whatsoever to inflict them on others, that every man must (no shilly-shallying with "should") take responsibility for his own actions and bear the consequences of them, that rights must inescapably entail responsibilities, that greater responsibility must be an inevitable concomitant of greater power, and that absolute power should be given to none, for as Lord Acton said "Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely". The power of the CoGA has to be broken, and broken totally and irrevocably before the populace of Safehold can have liberty and freedom.

The only Vicars untainted with the jihad are dead. All the others voted for the jihad when the Grand Vicar proposed it. Clyntahn would not have let any vicar voting against the jihad to live when he purged the Vicarate. Who would be untouched by the jihad? I suspect no one.

As for Duchairn, wouldn't Nynian have a good idea of Duchairn's mindset? I suspect so.

Bottom line is that an offer for a cease fire from Duchairn to at least discuss minimum requirements for a negotiated peace in person with Cayleb and Stonar would benefit Siddermark most. The few months of truce would let the RSA recruit and equip enough new units to be independent of the ICA. Sure the AoG would also gain more rifles, but the allies would increase their capabilities more.

Siddermark will accept a cease fire in place. Duchairn can convince Cayleb and Stonar that they can achieve their publically stated goal through negotiations. If the actual negotiations take too long, the allies can begin shooting. I don't see the upside in the allies not listening to the initial (post Clyntahn) offer to negotiate.

n7axw wrote:

PeterZ wrote:
Of course they are accessories. Yet, if they are willing to truly reform and execute reforms that Reformists will be happy with, can they be worked with? I suspect the CoC and Reformists will agree to work with them. Perhaps, their punishments if any will be part of the resultant negotiated reforms. Depending on the conditions at the time of the cease fire, this might well be a viable alternative to all parties involved.

No, I think they have to go and someone untainted by the jihad has to step up. I'm not saying that they should automaticly face execution, but they should face whatever penalty that the allies decide justice demands after a fair trial and be deprived of their positions. They have been too much a part of the problem to be part of the solution.

Don

No negotiations will put the CoC on an equal footing with the CoGA. Only a sound theological argument can do that. The Corisandian reformist priest killed in front of his Church presented such an argument. He persuaded his congregation with that argument. Making that argument from behind a bayonet will only focus loyalist minds on the use of force. It effectively equates Clyntahn's us of force with the Allies. Sure Clyntahn was more brutal and ruthless. But his use of force and compulsion is not inherently evil or wrong.

Bringing peace through mutually agreed upon negotiations on the other hand will emphasize the qualitative difference between Clyntahn and the Allies. The fundamental rightness/goodness of the CoC position is emphasized by their gaining willing cooperation from their enemies not a fearful compliance.

McGuiness wrote:snip

If anyone wants to argue about Rayno, keep in mind that both he and Clyntahn are inquisitors, and thus subject to immediate death, compliments of the EoC.

That's the very minimum starting point for a negotiated truce with the CoGA. No Go4. No Inquisition forcing everyone on Safehold to behave as they demand or be tortured to death. Renouncement of the Punishment, the Question, and the books of Schueler and Chihiro. Acceptance of the CoC as an equally valid path to God, and universal religious tolerance. (Good luck with that in Harchong and Desnair!)

Given these requirements, I think any negotiated peace comes at the point of a bayonet, with an occupying army in Zion and the Temple.