Beating up Frontier Fleet, mercilessly

Theemile wrote:Havenite tactics are still built around 8 SD(p)s - don't forget to add a CLAC for defenses and mop up tactics.

They still operate 8 ship squadrons. And you're right that they probably normally operate a full squadron of 8 SD(P)s with an attached division of 2 CLACs (or possibly 2 divisions; depending in need or target).

But I suppose it's possible that they've organized some 'mixed' squadrons, where it's 3 divisions of SD(P)s and 1 division of CLACs making up a single squadron.

I put forward the idea of Haven forming these task forces because it seemed that everyone, in their battle plans with the SL/SLN, was only considering Maticoran forces and sometimes Grayson forces. However, it's currently the Haven forces that have the missile supply to go pound on people if they have to do any fighting. Ghost Rider can be a “poor man's Apollo” for any any GA fleet out there with MDMs so I envision these fleets having at least this much Manticore and Grayson representation in them. But don't limit these task forces to just Haven nor should the small task forces left behind for negotiation be only from Haven.

My vision for the configuration/components of the task forces is that I want a central “hammer” of SD(P)s to make the Verge system, whose largest unit is usually BC's, to surrender with out a fight. But that would mean that you would first have to convince the local forces to prepare to fight. Which means that the initial approach to the planet would have to be small units that the local defenses believed they could defend against. Then after they were committed to where they couldn't really run effectively, the “hammer” of SD's would drop into the system. You couldn't get away with this tactic forever, maybe only 3 or 4 times. So I want as many of these task forces set up as possible, for something like a 4 month campaign, to strike while the tactic still works. If I had 10 of them I could hit 40 sector HQ's and appropriate satellite systems in the Verge and maybe even in the Shell.

But the thinking and tactics need to be more than just about Manticore. How can the resources of the different fleets in the GA be combined to make the most effective fighting force possible with resources that are currently available? If the SLN is afraid to use their SD's in a wall to wall battle and the SLN is reluctant to attack the missile pod defended worlds of the GA then I want to take my SD(P) resources and use them somewhere in an effective way while the SLN is still punch drunk. You can't engage in a battle and let the enemy go lick it's wounds and reorganize, you have to press the battle as Grant did to Lee in the Civil War and run them to ground!

But at the same time, as Honor has laid out as part of the battle plan with the SL, there has to be a political component, you can't be making enemies of everybody. Thus I made the provision for the small task forces that gets left behind. I'm after the fighting forces of the SLN and it's ability to wage war, not necessarily the people on the planets. In many cases these people are going to want independence from the SL with out any encouragement.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Theemile wrote:Havenite tactics are still built around 8 SD(p)s - don't forget to add a CLAC for defenses and mop up tactics.

They still operate 8 ship squadrons. And you're right that they probably normally operate a full squadron of 8 SD(P)s with an attached division of 2 CLACs (or possibly 2 divisions; depending in need or target).

But I suppose it's possible that they've organized some 'mixed' squadrons, where it's 3 divisions of SD(P)s and 1 division of CLACs making up a single squadron.

That sort of ad-hoc organization, devised for a particular mission, is what the task force/group/unit is for.

I don't think we've ever seen text-ev anywhere about moving 3 divisions of a squadron. Even pre-First war Manticore only sent single divisions of Dreadnoughts around. Haven sent half-squadrons (two divisions) on their provocations to pick off single targets.

From there, it almost always seems to jump to full squadron count. Such as when Admiral Henke sent off that destroyer squadron, when they found out MA is setting up resistance units with Firebrand, and one of them sent a call for help to, uh Montana I think. The Texas planet with all the beef.


So we'd likely see Haven sending out hammers of either 4 or 8 SD(P)'s, 2 CLACs, and a squadron or two of BC's.

And with BC build times being so much shorter than waller, we could very well see Manticore shifting primarily to their favoured Battlecruisers, and just churn out Nike's and Sag-C's. That gets Manticore back in the fight faster, it makes use of Haven's large podnought reserve, and the strengths of both nations.


On a side, but somewhat related note, I'm never entirely clear on the destroyer "flotilla" designator. In Short Victorious, Parks had a destroyer flotilla watching Seaford, and I think we had textev of that being around 10 ships, and there was a reference to "thickening the Seaford picket flotilla". But with squadron being 8, division being 2, and singleton being obvious. Where would a flotilla fall.

Somtaaw wrote:I don't think we've ever seen text-ev anywhere about moving 3 divisions of a squadron. Even pre-First war Manticore only sent single divisions of Dreadnoughts around. Haven sent half-squadrons (two divisions) on their provocations to pick off single targets.

From there, it almost always seems to jump to full squadron count. Such as when Admiral Henke sent off that destroyer squadron, when they found out MA is setting up resistance units with Firebrand, and one of them sent a call for help to, uh Montana I think. The Texas planet with all the beef.

Montana, yes. I suspect Montanans may grumble about their state/planet being compared to Texas, although their reasons may be kinda opaque to New Yorkers and Los Angelenos....

I would not, however, count on those full squadrons consistently being full. Peeling off divisions or singletons is a norm outside Home Fleet, which will leave some squadrons shy of their full count in a given place at a given time.

House of Steel says that in the RMN at least, squadrons are more administrative units than tactical ones: breaking them apart for particular jobs doesn't face much resistance.

So we'd likely see Haven sending out hammers of either 4 or 8 SD(P)'s, 2 CLACs, and a squadron or two of BC's.

And with BC build times being so much shorter than waller, we could very well see Manticore shifting primarily to their favoured Battlecruisers, and just churn out Nike's and Sag-C's. That gets Manticore back in the fight faster, it makes use of Haven's large podnought reserve, and the strengths of both nations.

I'm sure the RMN will take any excuse they can to build anything they can slap the battlecruiser label on, yes, so long as it is tougher than anything below the wall has a clear need to be but not itself equipped with the defenses or weapons to serve in the wall. *grumble* (I feel a lot better about the Nike when I can think of it as a super-armored super-cruiser....)

That said, certainly the DDM's they have and their long experience with cruiser operations mean they're going to be the best member of the Grand Alliance to build and use cruisers particularly.

On a side, but somewhat related note, I'm never entirely clear on the destroyer "flotilla" designator. In Short Victorious, Parks had a destroyer flotilla watching Seaford, and I think we had textev of that being around 10 ships, and there was a reference to "thickening the Seaford picket flotilla". But with squadron being 8, division being 2, and singleton being obvious. Where would a flotilla fall.

HoS doesn't even mention it among organizational units, so it may be (in the RMN, in the Havenite Wars era) just a different word for a particular assemblage of light units - an informal variation on task force/task group when the units are small and of the same general type.

JeffEngel wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:On a side, but somewhat related note, I'm never entirely clear on the destroyer "flotilla" designator. In Short Victorious, Parks had a destroyer flotilla watching Seaford, and I think we had textev of that being around 10 ships, and there was a reference to "thickening the Seaford picket flotilla". But with squadron being 8, division being 2, and singleton being obvious. Where would a flotilla fall.

HoS doesn't even mention it among organizational units, so it may be (in the RMN, in the Havenite Wars era) just a different word for a particular assemblage of light units - an informal variation on task force/task group when the units are small and of the same general type.

Flotilla = fleet of small ships. Considering that a single Gryphon-class SD masses around the same as eighty-five destroyers, fleet is too weighty a label to hang on such a collection of ships. Administratively, it's probably equivalent to a task group.

Somtaaw wrote:On a side, but somewhat related note, I'm never entirely clear on the destroyer "flotilla" designator. In Short Victorious, Parks had a destroyer flotilla watching Seaford, and I think we had textev of that being around 10 ships, and there was a reference to "thickening the Seaford picket flotilla". But with squadron being 8, division being 2, and singleton being obvious. Where would a flotilla fall.

There was an old note on the Pearls which listed unit sizes. Unfortunately, that old note got lost during one of the data losses. As I recall, destroyer units were much more ad-hoc than other units. I think destroyer squadrons are actually a different size than squadrons of other units, or perhaps they were simply more variable. The flotilla unit is only used with destroyers, but I forget how many ships it was.

I wish someone had copies of these old files that were lost from the Pearls.

munroburton wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:HoS doesn't even mention it among organizational units, so it may be (in the RMN, in the Havenite Wars era) just a different word for a particular assemblage of light units - an informal variation on task force/task group when the units are small and of the same general type.

Flotilla = fleet of small ships. Considering that a single Gryphon-class SD masses around the same as eighty-five destroyers, fleet is too weighty a label to hang on such a collection of ships. Administratively, it's probably equivalent to a task group.

Ok so, mostly informal, but semi-official designator for a task force/group. Similar to War of Honor, how Sidemore station should have been labelled a fleet, but officially called a Task Group. Or Hancock Station with BCS5, being called Hancock TG-001.

Was just one of those things that bit my curiosity, but never could find anything about.

JeffEngel wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:I don't think we've ever seen text-ev anywhere about moving 3 divisions of a squadron. Even pre-First war Manticore only sent single divisions of Dreadnoughts around. Haven sent half-squadrons (two divisions) on their provocations to pick off single targets.

From there, it almost always seems to jump to full squadron count. Such as when Admiral Henke sent off that destroyer squadron, when they found out MA is setting up resistance units with Firebrand, and one of them sent a call for help to, uh Montana I think. The Texas planet with all the beef.

Montana, yes. I suspect Montanans may grumble about their state/planet being compared to Texas, although their reasons may be kinda opaque to New Yorkers and Los Angelenos....

I'm sorry if it may be labelling, I'm just a Canadian so all those odd American things can get awfully confusing sometimes. Maybe I need to go drink some more maple syrup, and eat more bacon to wake up.

Okay, I think I found the information. This comes from an RMN roleplaying site, but it matches my vague memory of the infodump from Weber. Destroyer units are different sizes from most other classes:

A Destroyer Division is 3-4 destroyers.
A Destroyer Squadron is 3-4 divisions (around 12 destroyers, I think).
A Destroyer Flotilla is 2-3 squadrons.

SWM wrote:Okay, I think I found the information. This comes from an RMN roleplaying site, but it matches my vague memory of the infodump from Weber. Destroyer units are different sizes from most other classes:

A Destroyer Division is 3-4 destroyers.
A Destroyer Squadron is 3-4 divisions (around 12 destroyers, I think).
A Destroyer Flotilla is 2-3 squadrons.

The 1905 Jayne's RMN has a chart of "standard" formation sizes per class. I believe SWM has it, but I can check and post later.

It has also been stated that due to the varied jobs of DDs and CLs, "Flotillia" is more an administrative organization than an actual movement/tactical organization - it's assumed at any assigned "flotillia" will have 30-50% of it's strength out on detached duties.