One way to kill the grand inquisitor and rayno now

Aethor wrote:I don't think it can last much longer; the Temple side does not innovate, and any innovator (like that liutenant in Dohlaran Navy) is watched with suspicion and is always a candidate for the Punishment if the Inquisition wants to vent some angst on someone.

The Charisian side innovates. Split the world in two, let the Charisians innovate and develop industry unhindered for 50 years, the other side won't have a snowflake's chance in hell. That's even if you stop short of Proscriptions.

The Temple may not innovate, but they're more than happy enough to get the information on the EoC's latest innovations, and then justify adopting them an using a bit of logic-chopping to allow them under the Proscriptions. We've seen them do this already with pretty much everything up through explosive shells for artillery; really, the bottleneck for the CoGA is rate of production. And even there, they're coming up with some minor innovations of their own (think about how the St Kylmahn rifle, with its interchangeable (in a limited fashion) parts, is being built). And so far, it's given the CoGA enough of a lifeline to keep the war going.

Aethor wrote:Or the Temple side could, as a survival measure, start innovating. In which case they will hit the level where they will start questioning Proscriptions, and seeing "mystical" devices in the Temple as simply a product of higher level craft, not magic or divine influence.

You could say the same thing about the EoC. They haven't actually hit that point, though; don't confuse the knowledge that the Inner Circle has with those who merely know that "Merlin has visions", or not even that. It helps the EoC to have their most innovative types be in the Inner Circle, fully aware of the truth, but they've also had good people who were simply deemed too risky to tell, because of the depth of their faith - Grey Harbor was one such, IIRC.

Aethor wrote:Also, keep in mind that Nimue's cave was undiscovered (by the Temple and the OBS) all this time. Given enough time, Owl and Howsmyn could put a workforce in there (if you tell them the full story, after a careful selection) to expand it, and make a small underground shipyard which would be deep enough to be hidden, and build some sort of a secret door... well, there already is one, but only big enough for assault shuttles or several skimmers in a row. Maybe just widen it a bit.

Doesn't have to be capable of building SDs. A cruiser or a destroyer will do the job of blasting the OBS into space dust and then they can hang ominously over the Temple in case anything wakes up there.

Not Gonna Happen. That OBS up there is likely to detect the spacecraft before it can get into position, and pull a Rakurai on it - and that assumes that the Cave has the infrastructure needed to be able to hand-craft an attack spaceship. Just because OWL could fab up one PICA doesn't mean that it - s/he - has sufficient resources to fab up even as much as another skimmer - and that assumes that the plans for larger military hardware are available.

Remember why Merlin is so leery of operating in Zion at all, and refuses to operate too close to (or in!) the Temple. There's gonna be Shan-wei's own difference in the emissions profile of a big-ass attack/bombardment spacecraft and the sort of thing that the Archangels may have set the OBS to overlook because it was the kind of thing that they were using to present themselves to the "Adams and Eves" as angelic presences.

As long as the EoC continues to stay within the Proscriptions of Jwo-Jeng - and they are; they have to, for social reasons, and it's going to be quite some time before they can even start to tell the truth to everyone - their tech advantage over the CoGA is going to be both limited and transitory - and if they openly violate the Proscriptions, they hand the CoGA a major propaganda coup which could push the Reformists back in line with the CoGA against the EoC and CoC, rather than them being a third faction that is tacitly aligned more with EoC/CoC. Not to mention driving some of their own Church-of-Charisians into the Temple's arms. And don't think that the Inner Circle doesn't realize that, either - there's plenty of textev where they discuss that very point. Even Merlin on his own wasn't going to do anything that would too obviously be "strange" or "demonic" (like using a SNARC remote to detonate Hektor's head), for exactly that reason.

Frankly, regardless of the outcome of the "formal" war, I suspect very much that in the eastern and northern provinces of Siddarmark, there're going to be Temple Loyalists killing Reformists, and vice-versa, for generations. Look at the whole business of Serb/Croat/Bosnian Moslems in what used to be Yugoslavia. Or, closer to home, the legendary Hatfields and McCoys.

It's the same situation, in a way, as what Eric Flint has imposed on the availability of tech and information in Grantville in his Ring of Fire universe - and RFC hasn't made a habit of writing his good guys into shooting fish in a barrel; there's no storytelling tension that way, and a story without tension and conflict is BORING. Safehold isn't, even though we know that the eventual outcome is going to be that Merlin succeeds in Nimue Alban's mission, and humanity will be ready to face the Gbaba when the time comes.

McTurbo wrote:then comes the other question.. do you want to kill them?

without a doubt they are despicable characters who need to face some form of justice in the end. But at this time their blunders and errors due to blindly thrashing about is helping more than hurting.

Would we really want to cut off the head of the snake so to speak and find that we have instead of solving the problem. arranged to our dismay a power vacuum that is filled by someone or thing just as ruthless but far smarter and methodical about its decisions.

Deal with the Devil you know?

That's pretty much the point I was making with this post.

Mr. Weber still needs a villian.

So no defeat of the Archvillian/Final boss before he's ready to end this chapter of the Safeholdian conflict. Besides I suspect if anyone is going to get the chance to kill Clinthian its going to be Duchrain. There's been too much build up for anything else to happen.

McTurbo wrote:then comes the other question.. do you want to kill them?

without a doubt they are despicable characters who need to face some form of justice in the end. But at this time their blunders and errors due to blindly thrashing about is helping more than hurting.

Would we really want to cut off the head of the snake so to speak and find that we have instead of solving the problem. arranged to our dismay a power vacuum that is filled by someone or thing just as ruthless but far smarter and methodical about its decisions.

Deal with the Devil you know?

Excellent point, and welcome to the forums!

Merlin has a conflict between his conscience and his long term goal for humanity. He's sworn that if Clyntahn ever comes within his reach, he's a dead man. Yet Merlin has to admit that Clyntahn is making the process of getting the Safeholdians on the mainland to think and to innovate much, much easier, which promotes Merlin's long term goal of breaking mankind free from the Proscriptions, and eventually from the CoGA itself.

Clyntahn is actually a tool of progress in two ways. First, he and the rest of the Go4 started the war, and second, Clyntahn happily grants a dispensation for every bit of EoC technology that the church manages to duplicate: rifles, priming caps, new types of gunpowder, the minnie ball, and the list goes on and on... Any Charisian innovation that's given the blessing of the CoGA is accepted across the entire planet, which includes TLs everywhere, and ironically the adherents of the CoC. Once Mother Church says an invention is kosher, that item can't be used to accuse Charis of violating the Proscriptions either. Lather, rinse, repeat...

Temple Loyalists must absolutely hate this!

I can see Clynton saying, "Ugh, is the dispensation from the proscriptions for the AoG for the duration of the war only? If so it does not cover the heretics."

Poker

pokermind wrote:I can see Clynton saying, "Ugh, is the dispensation from the proscriptions for the AoG for the duration of the war only? If so it does not cover the heretics."

Poker

Yeah, were the COGA to win, I can visualize Clyntahn rounding up all of the innovators he can put his hands on and putting them to the question as well as rolling the tech clock back as far as possible... He might not get away with it, but that would be his vision.

Don

n7axw wrote:

pokermind wrote:I can see Clynton saying, "Ugh, is the dispensation from the proscriptions for the AoG for the duration of the war only? If so it does not cover the heretics."

Poker

Yeah, were the COGA to win, I can visualize Clyntahn rounding up all of the innovators he can put his hands on and putting them to the question as well as rolling the tech clock back as far as possible... He might not get away with it, but that would be his vision.

Don

I think it was mentioned in MTaT that in many ways Clyntahn is the Inner Circle's best advantage. His religious policies work to undermine the church's authority by approving all the innovations the church needs to survive as a war expedient. We've seen quite a few Temple Loyalists who have serious problems with these dispensations, even as expedient war measures, who are torn between their own faith in the Holy Writ, their realization that there is no other way to win the Jihad and their fear of the Inquisition and of Clyntahn. This is the best way in the long run to chip away at the Church's authority.

Moreover, in the unlikely event of a CoGA victory, simply rolling back the innovations is going to be difficult. Killing off the innovators might or might not succeed, but as the war continues more and more economic processes are going to become dependent upon these innovations. Food production would drop because all the Charisian farming equipment will be banned. Shipyards would need to be "downgraded" to constructing galleys yet again while suppression of all knowledge of galleons would need to be achieved somehow for at least one generation (and assuming some enterprising pirates don't manage to build a secret shipyard somewhere). Sail lofts, textile plants, iron works and rope walks would similarly need to be downgraded to produce less of everything - even after all the other industries had grown dependent upon the higher production rates. No - It would not be easy and perhaps even impossible to put this particular genie back in the bottle.

Would Duchairn be a better target? He could single-handedly wreck Merlin's plans by getting some sort of truce.
He'd also be a much easier target cuz he actually goes out into the city, well away from the Temple.

Aethor wrote:

FreeTrav wrote:I don't see this as being a short war, though - if anything, it'll end up being a generational war, especially in western Siddarmark and points west on Haven, and even taking Zion and the Temple won't end it; the remnants of the CoGA hierarchy can relocate to Harchong and continue the fight, and there will probably be Temple Loyalists remaining pretty much everywhere, but potentially a majority in Haven and Howard.

I don't think it can last much longer; the Temple side does not innovate, and any innovator (like that liutenant in Dohlaran Navy) is watched with suspicion and is always a candidate for the Punishment if the Inquisition wants to vent some angst on someone.

The Charisian side innovates. Split the world in two, let the Charisians innovate and develop industry unhindered for 50 years, the other side won't have a snowflake's chance in hell. That's even if you stop short of Proscriptions.

Or the Temple side could, as a survival measure, start innovating. In which case they will hit the level where they will start questioning Proscriptions, and seeing "mystical" devices in the Temple as simply a product of higher level craft, not magic or divine influence.

Also, keep in mind that Nimue's cave was undiscovered (by the Temple and the OBS) all this time. Given enough time, Owl and Howsmyn could put a workforce in there (if you tell them the full story, after a careful selection) to expand it, and make a small underground shipyard which would be deep enough to be hidden, and build some sort of a secret door... well, there already is one, but only big enough for assault shuttles or several skimmers in a row. Maybe just widen it a bit.

Doesn't have to be capable of building SDs. A cruiser or a destroyer will do the job of blasting the OBS into space dust and then they can hang ominously over the Temple in case anything wakes up there.

The difficulty here is that the industrial plant available to Merlin and Nimue isn't capable of operating on that scale. They have a small fabrication shop that while modern isn't up to the task of building even a small starship at this point. In addition to that, some of the resources needed don't even exist yet.

This can change over time after the inquisition and proscriptions are overthrown and the tech that flows from the scientific method has led to the development of new alloys and chemicals and eventually more advanced forms of energy. But that is several generations away.

Finally remember that the OBS is not just one target, but IIRC, six targets which complicates the task of knocking it out.

So we are probably stuck with the OBS for a while unless Merlin and Nimue can figure a way of neutalizing it with current resources. My own vision of this would be finding a computer in the Temple basement that would make it possible to turn the thing off.

Don

n7axw wrote:

Aethor wrote:
I don't think it can last much longer; the Temple side does not innovate, and any innovator (like that liutenant in Dohlaran Navy) is watched with suspicion and is always a candidate for the Punishment if the Inquisition wants to vent some angst on someone.

The Charisian side innovates. Split the world in two, let the Charisians innovate and develop industry unhindered for 50 years, the other side won't have a snowflake's chance in hell. That's even if you stop short of Proscriptions.

Or the Temple side could, as a survival measure, start innovating. In which case they will hit the level where they will start questioning Proscriptions, and seeing "mystical" devices in the Temple as simply a product of higher level craft, not magic or divine influence.

Also, keep in mind that Nimue's cave was undiscovered (by the Temple and the OBS) all this time. Given enough time, Owl and Howsmyn could put a workforce in there (if you tell them the full story, after a careful selection) to expand it, and make a small underground shipyard which would be deep enough to be hidden, and build some sort of a secret door... well, there already is one, but only big enough for assault shuttles or several skimmers in a row. Maybe just widen it a bit.

Doesn't have to be capable of building SDs. A cruiser or a destroyer will do the job of blasting the OBS into space dust and then they can hang ominously over the Temple in case anything wakes up there.

The difficulty here is that the industrial plant available to Merlin and Nimue isn't capable of operating on that scale. They have a small fabrication shop that while modern isn't up to the task of building even a small starship at this point. In addition to that, some of the resources needed don't even exist yet.

This can change over time after the inquisition and proscriptions are overthrown and the tech that flows from the scientific method has led to the development of new alloys and chemicals and eventually more advanced forms of energy. But that is several generations away.

Finally remember that the OBS is not just one target, but IIRC, six targets which complicates the task of knocking it out.

So we are probably stuck with the OBS for a while unless Merlin and Nimue can figure a way of neutalizing it with current resources. My own vision of this would be finding a computer in the Temple basement that would make it possible to turn the thing off.

Don

A small fab shop can build big things - just in small pieces (Lego space ship anyone...). Raw material supply would be a bigger issue, big things need big mines to feed them (and a couple of hundred thousand tonnes of ore are a little obvious).