Effect of the Interdict on Temple Loyalists in EoC?

It's a given (from textev) that the Interdict has been imposed by the CoGA on (Old) Charis and Chisholm. I think it's also reasonable to assume that by the end of LAMA it's also been extended to Emerald, Corisande, Zebediah, and Tarot. Whether it has been or not, however, is less than entirely relevant to my query.

Presumably, the reason that the Interdict was imposed was, in essence, to terrify the people into believing that their immortal souls were in peril, and thus that they would rise up against the apostasy of their rulers and depose them, and return to obedience to Mother Church.

That, obviously, hasn't worked. The reality is that the only people affected by the Interdict are the Temple Loyalists in the secular states affected.

So... How are the Temple Loyalists dealing with this? It's been years, plural, since the interdict has been imposed; surely the Temple Loyalists have continued to have babies, meet and fall in love, die, commit sins, and so on - so how are they dealing with the fact that their children cannot be baptized (except in the heretical Church of Charis), they cannot be married (except in the heretical Church of Charis), they cannot have last rites and be buried in consecrated ground (except in the heretical Church of Charis)... they can't even celebrate the Wednesday Mass or make a valid confession (except in the heretical Church of Charis). This can't be having good effects on them, spiritually. They can't really go the "converso"/"crypto-Jew" route; it wasn't imposed by the Church of Charis and there have been no forced conversions; it was imposed by their own Church, from their own "Vatican", and too much of the ritual of the CoGA really does require the priesthood.

So, what is the spiritual life for a Temple Loyalist Old Charisian or Chisholmian like?

FreeTrav wrote:It's a given (from textev) that the Interdict has been imposed by the CoGA on (Old) Charis and Chisholm. I think it's also reasonable to assume that by the end of LAMA it's also been extended to Emerald, Corisande, Zebediah, and Tarot. Whether it has been or not, however, is less than entirely relevant to my query.

Presumably, the reason that the Interdict was imposed was, in essence, to terrify the people into believing that their immortal souls were in peril, and thus that they would rise up against the apostasy of their rulers and depose them, and return to obedience to Mother Church.

That, obviously, hasn't worked. The reality is that the only people affected by the Interdict are the Temple Loyalists in the secular states affected.

So... How are the Temple Loyalists dealing with this? It's been years, plural, since the interdict has been imposed; surely the Temple Loyalists have continued to have babies, meet and fall in love, die, commit sins, and so on - so how are they dealing with the fact that their children cannot be baptized (except in the heretical Church of Charis), they cannot be married (except in the heretical Church of Charis), they cannot have last rites and be buried in consecrated ground (except in the heretical Church of Charis)... they can't even celebrate the Wednesday Mass or make a valid confession (except in the heretical Church of Charis). This can't be having good effects on them, spiritually. They can't really go the "converso"/"crypto-Jew" route; it wasn't imposed by the Church of Charis and there have been no forced conversions; it was imposed by their own Church, from their own "Vatican", and too much of the ritual of the CoGA really does require the priesthood.

So, what is the spiritual life for a Temple Loyalist Old Charisian or Chisholmian like?

Hi FreeTrav,

Welcome to the forums and you are invited to stop by the bar and have the first drink on the house (all virtual, of course).

As for your question, in our timeline during the middle ages, when the interdict was imposed, people would gather for fellowship and to listen to itinerant preachers who would travel from place to place. Sometimes this insured a non sacramental piety that undermined the authority of the church and reverence for the sacraments even after the interdict was lifted. Such things as marriages still took place without the church's blessing. In short, people coped and got by as best they could.

I would find it hard to imagine it being much different on Safehold. I would add that I would expect the interdict to strengthen the Church of Charis since if the COGA refuses to provide spiritual help to its poeple, a certain percentage of them will go where they can find it.

Don

n7axw wrote:Hi FreeTrav,

Welcome to the forums and you are invited to stop by the bar and have the first drink on the house (all virtual, of course).

As for your question, in our timeline during the middle ages, when the interdict was imposed, people would gather for fellowship and to listen to itinerant preachers who would travel from place to place. Sometimes this insured a non sacramental piety that undermined the authority of the church and reverence for the sacraments even after the interdict was lifted. Such things as marriages still took place without the church's blessing. In short, people coped and got by as best they could.

I would find it hard to imagine it being much different on Safehold. I would add that I would expect the interdict to strengthen the Church of Charis since if the COGA refuses to provide spiritual help to its poeple, a certain percentage of them will go where they can find it.

Don

This is where I echo others in saying that one should not try to draw parallels too closely between any era on Earth and Safehold - by the time of the fall of the Terran Federation, it had been well-established that marriage in the church was a sacrament, and the textev discussing the interdict strongly implies the same on Safehold - that is, on Safehold, with the Church being universal (and virtually theocratic) there is no civil marriage. I'll allow that perhaps the confession-contrition-penance rituals are not considered sacramental; I don't really know what their status is in modern Christianity (of any stripe; I'm Jewish) - but I'm fairly sure that Langhorne, Bèdard, et alia, based their Church principally on "high church" Christianity. I'm also fairly sure that the textev discussing the Interdict explicitly barred baptism, weddings, and burial in consecrated ground.

I do agree that the inability/unwillingness of the Church to minister to their loyal flock - those that went over to the Church of Charis are irrelevant, at this point - is not going to do anything good for the Church's status in the Interdicted lands.

That's an interesting question.

According to BHD (when Sharleyan is waiting for Cayleb and Merlin out on the balcony) there were Temple Loyalists "who continued to worship there" openly gathering in and around a Church that was later torched by people who were angry about the assassination attempt on Sharleyan.

According to MTaT (when Irys talks to Maikel on another balcony) Irys and Davyn were allowed access to a Temple Loyalist priest who would "celebrate mass privately for them".

So, either the Interdict has been lifted, which I doubt, or even the Temple Loyalist priests are ignoring it.

FreeTrav wrote:

n7axw wrote:Hi FreeTrav,

Welcome to the forums and you are invited to stop by the bar and have the first drink on the house (all virtual, of course).

As for your question, in our timeline during the middle ages, when the interdict was imposed, people would gather for fellowship and to listen to itinerant preachers who would travel from place to place. Sometimes this insured a non sacramental piety that undermined the authority of the church and reverence for the sacraments even after the interdict was lifted. Such things as marriages still took place without the church's blessing. In short, people coped and got by as best they could.

I would find it hard to imagine it being much different on Safehold. I would add that I would expect the interdict to strengthen the Church of Charis since if the COGA refuses to provide spiritual help to its poeple, a certain percentage of them will go where they can find it.

Don

This is where I echo others in saying that one should not try to draw parallels too closely between any era on Earth and Safehold - by the time of the fall of the Terran Federation, it had been well-established that marriage in the church was a sacrament, and the textev discussing the interdict strongly implies the same on Safehold - that is, on Safehold, with the Church being universal (and virtually theocratic) there is no civil marriage. I'll allow that perhaps the confession-contrition-penance rituals are not considered sacramental; I don't really know what their status is in modern Christianity (of any stripe; I'm Jewish) - but I'm fairly sure that Langhorne, Bèdard, et alia, based their Church principally on "high church" Christianity. I'm also fairly sure that the textev discussing the Interdict explicitly barred baptism, weddings, and burial in consecrated ground.

I do agree that the inability/unwillingness of the Church to minister to their loyal flock - those that went over to the Church of Charis are irrelevant, at this point - is not going to do anything good for the Church's status in the Interdicted lands.

There are certain parallels with earth that are really too close to be avoided altogether. David has created a society on Safehold modeled on the Medieval period Where marriage, baptism, etc were indeed sacraments even as they remain today in the Roman Catholic Church. Imposition of the interdict did indeed have have the penalty of forbidding the sacraments and other priestly services just as on Safehold. And just as on Safehold, they were imposed with the intent of rallying the laity against a ruler to bring him to heel or even deposing him just like the G-4 intended in the case of Cayleb and Sharleyan.

As for marriage, I need to clarify. I didn't mean to imply that civil marriage took the place of sacramental marriage. I meant that marriage became informal. In the case of Charis, I could visualize some couples going to COC priests if service from COGA priests were not available. There are certain things that not even the G-4 can control among which are that men and women are going to come together and have families. In some respects, the G-4 is facing a situation where the lands placed under the interdict have formally withdrawn their loyalty from the COGA,making the interdict almost impossible to enforce. That makes the specific situation more comparable to the Reformation than the Medieval period.

In his post above, avg notes that Archbishop Mikael managed to secure the services of a Temple Loyalist priest to offer the mass for Daivyn and Irys which implies that the interdict may have been applied unevenly or maybe ignored by a certain percentage of TL priests. I'd forgotten about that one. It does seem a bit odd.

In closing, I can agree that parallels should not be applied too rigidly even though I would assert that they are rather obviously there.

Don

ayg wrote:That's an interesting question.

According to BHD (when Sharleyan is waiting for Cayleb and Merlin out on the balcony) there were Temple Loyalists "who continued to worship there" openly gathering in and around a Church that was later torched by people who were angry about the assassination attempt on Sharleyan.

According to MTaT (when Irys talks to Maikel on another balcony) Irys and Davyn were allowed access to a Temple Loyalist priest who would "celebrate mass privately for them".

So, either the Interdict has been lifted, which I doubt, or even the Temple Loyalist priests are ignoring it.

I think the Temple Loyalists are maintaining informal religious activities - formally recognizing and adhering to the Interdict, but in practice nearly ignoring it. And yes, that does corrode Church authority in a rush. Not that Clyntahn is concerned - I'm sure his view of Charisian Temple "Loyalists" has the scare-quotes firmly attached to every one of them who isn't a suicide bomber bent on killing heretics immediately and at any price.

Effectively, the Interdict means that even Temple Loyalists behind Charisian lines are either kicked out of formal religion or being made just another species of heretic. It's another schism Clyntahn's created himself.

The text says that there are CoGA priests actively performing services in Charis, with the permission of the empire. It appears that the interdict has no meaningful effect.

SWM wrote:The text says that there are CoGA priests actively performing services in Charis, with the permission of the empire. It appears that the interdict has no meaningful effect.

Since Zion can't enforce its will in lands beyond its control, it ends up falling to the conscience of the individual TL priest. I wonder what percentage of them will honor the interdict.

Actually, unless the church enjoys the overwhelming loyalty of the people of a land, there is no way for it to accomplish its purpose and actually becomes counter productive.

Don

SWM wrote:The text says that there are CoGA priests actively performing services in Charis, with the permission of the empire. It appears that the interdict has no meaningful effect.

OK, this does make it seem like the hierarchy of the CoGA in the EoC is effectively ignoring the Interdict - but that leads to a different potentially interesting question: Will sacraments - most notably, marriage and baptism - performed by (Imperial) Charisian Temple Loyalist priests be recognized by the CoGA outside the EoC? IOW, if they emigrate to e.g., Desnair, is little Lwthyr Mahrtyn, baptized by a Temple Loyalist priest in Eraystor, going to be seen as the legitimate child of Ryshard and Zhayn Mahrtyn, who the same priest married a year earlier, or is little Lwthyr, who legally carries no last name, merely the acknowledged bastard son of Ryshard Mahrtyn and Zhayn Rhoh, who have been living in sin?

I don't think any sane person is going to move from the EoC to a Temple Loyalist country while the Jihad is going on. Sure, there were some who who left at the beginning, but that was before Clyntahn showed how crazy he is. Now, anyone wanting to move will know they risk being tortured to death.

After the war, maybe. But that will depend on how the war ends. Since this is a Weber series the good guys are going to win in the end, of course, but that's likely to take years.

If Charis wins any peace treaty would probably say that those sacraments are valid. If Charis loses, the baby in your example is likely to be killed with all the other babies, so it won't matter if it's legitimate or not.

FreeTrav wrote:Will sacraments - most notably, marriage and baptism - performed by (Imperial) Charisian Temple Loyalist priests be recognized by the CoGA outside the EoC? IOW, if they emigrate to e.g., Desnair, is little Lwthyr Mahrtyn, baptized by a Temple Loyalist priest in Eraystor, going to be seen as the legitimate child of Ryshard and Zhayn Mahrtyn, who the same priest married a year earlier, or is little Lwthyr, who legally carries no last name, merely the acknowledged bastard son of Ryshard Mahrtyn and Zhayn Rhoh, who have been living in sin?