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Can the new river class ironclads bypass the Salthar Canal?

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Can the new river class ironclads bypass the Salthar Canal?
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:19 am

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Howdy everybody,

I'm afraid this subject needs its own thread, even though its a spinoff of thinking about aspects of snippet #20.

Given I've been shouting for years about how critical taking the Salthar-Silk Town Canal is and various ways it could be done by small company sized teams of scout snipers etc, it's rather embarrassing that it suddenly occurred to me only a few days ago that the new smaller River II class ironclads [I realise they're really steel armored, but they're still being called ironclads] are probably small enough for not only the Salthar locks, but those of the Dairnyth-Alyksberg Canal at the north end of the Seridahn River, so they could get to the Bay of Bess far sooner than I'd previously considered.

That is, once the next obstacle in the Seridahn has been cleared and the river secured up to the Dairnyth-Alyksberg locks, they could enter and steam all the way to the Bay quite quickly [~2 days], before the RDA or Go4 could react effectively, especially assuming no further locks on the canal west of the Seridahn River, NTM I have very high confidence in the ICA engineers to repair or replace the locks fairly quickly if they are damaged or destroyed.

Part of my reasoning is that I don't think the Dohlarans know about these smaller ironclads in the first place, nor their potential for using smaller locks.

I suspect the reports of the "Great Canal Raid" included first hand descriptions of the Delthak 'River' class size relative to the locks, which were much bigger than most on the continents, if not the biggest.

While I'm confident the Go4 orders to prepare all the remaining locks for demolition have been followed, I believe there is some smug complacency or too much overconfidence, that because 'their locks' are too small for such vessels, they really don't have to worry about doing something so seemingly heretical, so opposed to the far more comfortable centuries of the Writ's condemnation of damaging the canals in the first place.

Thus, being very understandably focused on his own predicament [in the process of retreating back to Dohlar], Rychtyr will leave the upper Seridahn and Dairnyth canal to those who have that duty, assuming they're prepared to do it well, and be among the first to be shocked by the news of up to a squadron of ironclads passing Dairnyth on the now wider Fairmyn River, pausing only to smash the city's obsolete defenses [bombard cannon etc] before entering the Bay of Bess.

Another squadron or possibly only half would have already entered the Fairmyn river and in about 4 days steam up to the Charayn Canal locks, which are blown before them [as the alliance expected] to capture or destroy around 5 5days worth of Kaitswyrth's supplies on the river, nearly 3 times EHM's daily needs; not an insubstantial contribution to his advance to Dairnyth and the defense of the city and river against any MHoGatA sub-army sent south from the Langhorne-Bedard Canals.

While Sharpfield's fleet may not yet risk patrolling the Bay of Bess yet, sending a nimble squadron of schooners to help scout and patrol the Bay's narrows, would mean a squadron of River II class ironclads could effectively blockade the last 600 miles to Dairnyth, preventing supply from much further away.

The question then becomes how much and for how long could the local TL farmers and fishermen support a 400K army in a siege.

While it was traveling along the shoreline high road, it might consume a 5days' worth of food and fodder from the 1600 square miles it passed that day [that area within 1 day's travel of the 40 miles marched] as directed by the CoGA; quite bearable to the locals, especially if they have two harvests a year [I doubt it, being around 2600 mile north of the equator]; figuring a Border state average population of ~17 per mile, though those on the coast could well be 2-3 times that density due to the much better weather and economic opportunity etc.

This may be an opportunity for RFC to detail the more traditional Safehold siege, and the logistic advantages dragons provide in reducing the supply concerns we're familiar with from Earth's history.

Because, thanks to dragons, local fodder won't run out in a week as it did in Earth's sieges before steam power.

EHM would be defending behind a river at least several miles across according to the maps, far too wide for the MHoG's artillery; while his (including mortars) would have plenty of time against every boat's inexperienced rowers, not too mention the ironclad patrols that would probably destroy any concentration of barges, fishing boats, etc that the MHoG tried to collect for such attempts.

The combination of a mobile defense and ironclads could bottle up a quarter, even half of the MHoG, which could provide plenty of time for other developments in Dohlar and elsewhere that would also benefit the allies.

Does my supposition make sense?

Could RFC have distracted us by the obvious Salthar-Silk Town canal?

I await your wise comments. :D

L
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: Can the new river class ironclads bypass the Salthar Can
Post by anwi   » Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:47 am

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MILD SPOILERS AHEAD!

lyonheart wrote:[SNIP] the new smaller River II class ironclads [I realise they're really steel armored, but they're still being called ironclads] are probably small enough for not only the Salthar locks, but those of the Dairnyth-Alyksberg Canal at the north end of the Seridahn River, so they could get to the Bay of Bess far sooner than I'd previously considered.

That is, once the next obstacle in the Seridahn has been cleared and the river secured up to the Dairnyth-Alyksberg locks, they could enter and steam all the way to the Bay quite quickly [~2 days], before the RDA or Go4 could react effectively, especially assuming no further locks on the canal west of the Seridahn River, NTM I have very high confidence in the ICA engineers to repair or replace the locks fairly quickly if they are damaged or destroyed.

That's certainly a more workable option. However, we don't know the data for the Dairnyth-Alyksberg channel and whether the Seridahn around Alyksberg is navigable at all; so we don't know if it works out. In any case, you're probably way to optimistic about travel times and destroyed locks. There's this saying starting "fool me once ..."
But more importantly, I recall that in one of the first snippets we got news about the successful Desnairian raid on an ICN convoy. That led Staynair to deploy the new ironclads to the Desnairian coast, initially, and thoroughly wreck their shipbuilding capabilities. I'm not so sure that Staynair has rivers to spare for your idea.

lyonheart wrote:EHM would be defending behind a river at least several miles across according to the maps, far too wide for the MHoG's artillery; [SNIP]

At Dairnyth? I wouldn't trust the map with trivial things like the width of a river. But even if: You'd have lots a troops on a summer vacation at the Bay of Bess; which are hard to supply at that distance. Other than that, what objectives do you achieve?
Harchongians, even if they were headed that way, might just decide to turn, well, west towards Cliff Peak. And Kaitswyrth's secondary supply route via the Hildermoss will have reopened already. In case of doubt, Kaitswyrth might decide to retreat to reestablish his supply. And then the Dohlarans might show up to give you a call... For me, it's a lot of effort for meagre returns.

lyonheart wrote:Does my supposition make sense?

Could RFC have distracted us by the obvious Salthar-Silk Town canal?


1. Not that much, I miss the strategic objective.
2. Yes.
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Re: Can the new river class ironclads bypass the Salthar Can
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:09 pm

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Until they drop the casemate desing and start build monitors, their river ironclads would still have A LOT of problems. The river monitors could be build with draft no more than 1,5 meters; the casemate ironclad could have this draft only with a very low stability or a very small armor weight.
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Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Can the new river class ironclads bypass the Salthar Can
Post by captinjoehenry   » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:12 pm

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Also there is the issue that unless I am mistaken the River II are LONGER not shorter than the original Rivers so that they are better seaboats.
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Re: Can the new river class ironclads bypass the Salthar Can
Post by Dilandu   » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:26 pm

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captinjoehenry wrote:Also there is the issue that unless I am mistaken the River II are LONGER not shorter than the original Rivers so that they are better seaboats.


And so they are worser riverboats.
------------------------------

Oh well, if shortening the front is what the Germans crave,
Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

(Red Army lyrics from 1945)
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Re: Can the new river class ironclads bypass the Salthar Can
Post by PeterZ   » Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:10 pm

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I think you are conflating the Delthak IIs with the coastal ironclads. IIRC the Delthak IIs are the River IIs you refer to. RFC hasn't given us the specs on the longer coastal ironclads.

captinjoehenry wrote:Also there is the issue that unless I am mistaken the River II are LONGER not shorter than the original Rivers so that they are better seaboats.
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Re: Can the new river class ironclads bypass the Salthar Can
Post by captinjoehenry   » Sat Mar 21, 2015 3:47 pm

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PeterZ wrote:I think you are conflating the Delthak IIs with the coastal ironclads. IIRC the Delthak IIs are the River IIs you refer to. RFC hasn't given us the specs on the longer coastal ironclads.

captinjoehenry wrote:Also there is the issue that unless I am mistaken the River II are LONGER not shorter than the original Rivers so that they are better seaboats.


If you are talking about the city class the snipet says that they are too big to be used in canals the way the Rivers I & II are able to.
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Re: Can the new river class ironclads bypass the Salthar Can
Post by Louis R   » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:22 pm

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Exactly. However, the snippet also says that it's the Cities that are being diverted, not the River IIs.

However, whoever suggested that the IIs are longer is correct: 160' vs. 140'

captinjoehenry wrote:
PeterZ wrote:I think you are conflating the Delthak IIs with the coastal ironclads. IIRC the Delthak IIs are the River IIs you refer to. RFC hasn't given us the specs on the longer coastal ironclads.



captinjoehenry wrote:Also there is the issue that unless I am mistaken the River II are LONGER not shorter than the original Rivers so that they are better seaboats.


If you are talking about the city class the snipet says that they are too big to be used in canals the way the Rivers I & II are able to.
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Re: Can the new river class ironclads bypass the Salthar Can
Post by EdThomas   » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:58 pm

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Louis R wrote:Exactly. However, the snippet also says that it's the Cities that are being diverted, not the River IIs.

However, whoever suggested that the IIs are longer is correct: 160' vs. 140'

Would you post the specs please? Or the thread from whence they come. Thanks
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Re: Can the new river class ironclads bypass the Salthar Can
Post by SYED   » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:01 pm

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If i remember right, there is only a singel high road linking howard and haven over the land bridge. I bet if they can bring those heavy artillery ships close enough, they can ensure that nothing passes through the land bridge at all. THe feeling i got, only minimal traffic passed on the road, but denying it to them, means all those water based transports are at risk of being intercepted in the future.
The more howard is kept from haven, the bigger chance that the power of the church can be diminished in howards, if travel and communication is restricted.
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