Topic Actions

Topic Search

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 40 guests

Good Side to COGA Finding out about steam engines

This fascinating series is a combination of historical seafaring, swashbuckling adventure, and high technological science-fiction. Join us in a discussion!
Re: Good Side to COGA Finding out about steam engines
Post by pokermind   » Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:48 am

pokermind
Fleet Admiral

Posts: 4002
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2011 8:58 am
Location: Jerome, Idaho, USA

The weighted safety valve was introduced by James Watt in the 1700s, they did not work so well on locomotives what with their bouncing around so a spring scale was attached to the lever replacing the weight the face marked to show boiler pressure, later poppet valves were used.

During steamboat Races engineers sometimes tied down the safety valve for more speed. Until the 1830s high pressure was about 50 PSI as the lead and canvas caulking failed at higher temperatures.

The higher the pressure the greater the power for a given engine, as the piston area remains the same, but the force on it is area times pressure.

Poker

PS Drinkers the first boilers were copper and made like whiskey stills ;) used on the Newcomen [?sp] engines elongated with a tube top and inverted curve on the bottom above the fire were introduced by James Watt.
CPO Poker Mind Image and, Mangy Fur the Smart Alick Spacecat.

"Better to be hung for a hexapuma than a housecat," Com. Pang Yau-pau, ART.
Top
Re: Good Side to COGA Finding out about steam engines
Post by Henry Brown   » Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:19 pm

Henry Brown
Commodore

Posts: 912
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 1:57 pm
Location: Greenville NC

Highjohn wrote:I have gone back and read the passage. What they got was

"Why, a complete description of the heretics' new steel-making process..." with gaps and they would like more technical drawings plus "....it deals only with blast furnaces and something called open hearth furnaces, not all the other devices...." and "However as part of the description ... there is a discussion of something called 'steam engine'. I've found no directions for building one, but there's a lengthy description of the principles..."


So, they have:

The process of making the better steel and just mass producing steel.

Some technical drawings of the devices in the above processes.

The principles of steam engines.


So actually the situation is worse than I remembered, because they know how to produce the new better steel in large amounts. However with regards to the steam engine they only have the theoretical understanding so it could take a while to produce one and they don't have OWL.


As for historical example building steam engines in Vietnam in 1830s. It doesn't matter. We know they could build one, Charis did. The questions are how many, how fast and most importantly, will they BLOW UP. Yes you can build a steam engine but they aren't easy to get right. If you overheat them they blow up, if you have a flawed container for the steam they blow up, if you have to much soot or ash they blow up or are damaged, if you have badly fitted gears, pipes, belts, pistons or seals, they blow up or crash. Steam engines are not easy to build right. This will take them a while and then they have to produce the steam engines and distribute them to really get good use out of them. The intelligence windfall was extremely important. However it will take five months to a year to implement the processes at least. Since Charis also took some time to implement the steam engines.


I'd say the CoG getting the improved steel making process has much bigger military implications than them getting the steam engine concept. I think the current war is only going to last another 2 or 3 years. So my assumptions are based on a relatively short timeframe. Within this timeframe, I think that it would be possible to exploit the knowledge of steel making. Which would lead to better rifles and artillery before war's end. And it would also boost the numbers of rifles and artillery that can be produced.

I don't think that the knowledge of steam engines can really be exploited within the likely timeframe of the current war. As you allude to, having the theory of steam engines is not enough. You also need practical knowledge of how to build and operate them. So in order to gain this kind of hands-on-experience, the CoG is going to have to design and build some prototypes. I estimate this might take 6 months to a year.

But even if the CoG has a working steam engine, by itself it does no good. They would also have to design and build a ship to use the steam engine. And that ship would also have to incorporate armor. And right now, the CoG has no experience with ironclads. So that will take more time. Then they have to actually build enough of them to make a difference in the military situation. Unless something changes with regard to the current military situation and prolongs the war, I just don't think the CoG is going to have enough time to do all this.
Top
Re: Good Side to COGA Finding out about steam engines
Post by Captain Igloo   » Fri Mar 20, 2015 3:30 pm

Captain Igloo
Captain (Junior Grade)

Posts: 269
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:02 pm

Henry Brown wrote:SNIPP
I'd say the CoG getting the improved steel making process has much bigger military implications than them getting the steam engine concept. I think the current war is only going to last another 2 or 3 years. So my assumptions are based on a relatively short timeframe. Within this timeframe, I think that it would be possible to exploit the knowledge of steel making. Which would lead to better rifles and artillery before war's end. And it would also boost the numbers of rifles and artillery that can be produced.

I don't think that the knowledge of steam engines can really be exploited within the likely timeframe of the current war. As you allude to, having the theory of steam engines is not enough. You also need practical knowledge of how to build and operate them. So in order to gain this kind of hands-on-experience, the CoG is going to have to design and build some prototypes. I estimate this might take 6 months to a year.

But even if the CoG has a working steam engine, by itself it does no good. They would also have to design and build a ship to use the steam engine. And that ship would also have to incorporate armor. And right now, the CoG has no experience with ironclads. So that will take more time. Then they have to actually build enough of them to make a difference in the military situation. Unless something changes with regard to the current military situation and prolongs the war, I just don't think the CoG is going to have enough time to do all this.


Well, one problem faced by Carnegie and Bethlehem was the simple fact, that the Harvey and Krupp patents on armor plate steel did not disclose the information necessary to conduct the Harvey/Krupp process. Both sets of patents, for instance, failed to disclose the crucial steps of tempering the plates before carburizing and hardening them as well as of annealing the plates afterwards. Tempering and annealing were crucial because they gave the armor a fibrous and tough structure that prevented cracking upon the impact of a shell.

In the absence of this deep structure, hardened plates were little better than compound iron-steel plates.

Another story: in October 1897 the Bethlehem and Carnegie companies sent a team to Krupp's factory at Essen. What impressed the Americans most was the German's obsession with controlling each step of the armor manufacture. From initial melting to final trimming, all plates were manufactured unter identical conditions. The heating furnaces bristled with pyrometers to monitor the temperature. The armor ship was packed with machine tools. Most important, a small army of well-trained workers, supervised by competent, educated engineers, continually monitored the furnaces to achieve to necessary uniformity.
Top

Return to Safehold