OpForce against OpForce

BobfromSydney wrote:As far as I recall, there have been two 'confrontations' between Honor and Shannon.

The first was in Flag in Exile.
There was a significant force imbalance with Honor's SDs vs. peep BBs. Honor disguised her SDs as BCs with ECM and Shannon spotted it - but not in time to save the BBs.

The second (in At All Costs) is much more tenuous - Shannon's Moriarty putting some significant pressure on Honor's Cutworm III raid.

In ship-to-ship combat or fleet combat I think Honor would have an advantage - but only because of her decades of experience in command.

If it were a competition in weapons and ship design Shannon would win by a large margin.

SharkHunter wrote:

BobfromSydney wrote:As far as I recall, there have been two 'confrontations' between Honor and Shannon.

The first was in Flag in Exile.
There was a significant force imbalance with Honor's SDs vs. peep BBs. Honor disguised her SDs as BCs with ECM and Shannon spotted it - but not in time to save the BBs.

The second (in At All Costs) is much more tenuous - Shannon's Moriarty putting some significant pressure on Honor's Cutworm III raid.

In ship-to-ship combat or fleet combat I think Honor would have an advantage - but only because of her decades of experience in command.

If it were a competition in weapons and ship design Shannon would win by a large margin.

In between, there's two more, Honor Among Enemies, when Vaubon was captured (that is when Honor met Warner and Shannon) by HMMAC Wayfarer, and the second when Tourville's group captured the Prince Adrian (though McKeon) was in command of that ship, in "In Enemy Hands". Sort of a tactical tie, I suppose.

The other "sorta" confrontations are in At All Costs is Foraker's fleet defense against Honor's mousetrap at Sidemore. Keep in mind though, Honor did a stint at the WDB and as a tactical instructor at Saganami Island, plus has had a hand in "sharpening the stone" against the best the RMN has to offer in terms of tactical setups and sims with all sorts of hardware.

SharkHunter wrote:

BobfromSydney wrote:As far as I recall, there have been two 'confrontations' between Honor and Shannon.

The first was in Flag in Exile.
There was a significant force imbalance with Honor's SDs vs. peep BBs. Honor disguised her SDs as BCs with ECM and Shannon spotted it - but not in time to save the BBs.

The second (in At All Costs) is much more tenuous - Shannon's Moriarty putting some significant pressure on Honor's Cutworm III raid.

In ship-to-ship combat or fleet combat I think Honor would have an advantage - but only because of her decades of experience in command.

If it were a competition in weapons and ship design Shannon would win by a large margin.

In between, there's two more, Honor Among Enemies, when Vaubon was captured (that is when Honor met Warner and Shannon) by HMMAC Wayfarer, and the second when Tourville's group captured the Prince Adrian (though McKeon) was in command of that ship, in "In Enemy Hands". Sort of a tactical tie, I suppose.

The other "sorta" confrontations are in At All Costs is Foraker's fleet defense against Honor's mousetrap at Sidemore. Keep in mind though, Honor did a stint at the WDB and as a tactical instructor at Saganami Island, plus has had a hand in "sharpening the stone" against the best the RMN has to offer in terms of tactical setups and sims with all sorts of hardware.

roseandheather wrote:Honestly, for me, it's a toss-up. There is absolutely no doubt that Shannon Foraker is a tactical genius, perhaps even surpassing Honor herself in terms of raw talent. But she's completely untried in single-ship command, let alone squadron or fleet command, and she's been at Bolthole for the best part of half a decade. Putting ART-era Shannon in the admiral's chair vs. Honor would likely result in defeat of epic proportions for Shannon, no matter how much of a genius she may be, and frankly, she's needed where she is. Haven - and now the Grand Alliance - has a nice crop of fiendishly clever flag officers already (see: Bellefeuille, Diamato, DeLaney, Hermier, etc.), but only Shannon (and Sonja) are going to be making the weapons breakthroughs that keep the fleet's tactical edge the sharpest in the known galaxy.
~*~

SharkHunter wrote:

BobfromSydney wrote:As far as I recall, there have been two 'confrontations' between Honor and Shannon.

The first was in Flag in Exile.
There was a significant force imbalance with Honor's SDs vs. peep BBs. Honor disguised her SDs as BCs with ECM and Shannon spotted it - but not in time to save the BBs.

The second (in At All Costs) is much more tenuous - Shannon's Moriarty putting some significant pressure on Honor's Cutworm III raid.

In ship-to-ship combat or fleet combat I think Honor would have an advantage - but only because of her decades of experience in command.

If it were a competition in weapons and ship design Shannon would win by a large margin.

In between, there's two more, Honor Among Enemies, when Vaubon was captured (that is when Honor met Warner and Shannon) by HMMAC Wayfarer, and the second when Tourville's group captured the Prince Adrian (though McKeon) was in command of that ship, in "In Enemy Hands". Sort of a tactical tie, I suppose.

The other "sorta" confrontations are in At All Costs is Foraker's fleet defense against Honor's mousetrap at Sidemore. Keep in mind though, Honor did a stint at the WDB and as a tactical instructor at Saganami Island, plus has had a hand in "sharpening the stone" against the best the RMN has to offer in terms of tactical setups and sims with all sorts of hardware.

roseandheather wrote:Honestly, for me, it's a toss-up. There is absolutely no doubt that Shannon Foraker is a tactical genius, perhaps even surpassing Honor herself in terms of raw talent. But she's completely untried in single-ship command, let alone squadron or fleet command, and she's been at Bolthole for the best part of half a decade. Putting ART-era Shannon in the admiral's chair vs. Honor would likely result in defeat of epic proportions for Shannon, no matter how much of a genius she may be, and frankly, she's needed where she is. Haven - and now the Grand Alliance - has a nice crop of fiendishly clever flag officers already (see: Bellefeuille, Diamato, DeLaney, Hermier, etc.), but only Shannon (and Sonja) are going to be making the weapons breakthroughs that keep the fleet's tactical edge the sharpest in the known galaxy.
~*~

cthia wrote:Same for me too Rose. I consider it pretty much a toss up in the tactical department. But remember, this is far in the future where Shannon may have acquired some ship time.

But if I had to lean more in one direction, I'd have to give Shannon a slight edge because she almost enjoys a certain cult status with the hardware. Remember, she was able to remain in better than shouting distance of Honor, with inferior, lower tech. Imagine what she can do if the tech-field is level. I think the edge would go to Shannon, by a nose. And with Shannon, it was a passion. Remember, she would have remained as Tac Officer if she could have. In pursuit of her passion.

Also, the matchup is to determine the best tac-officer, not the best tactician. Honor is a better tactician, but sitting at that tac-officer console, it's not cut and dry or a clear runaway in Honor's favor.


Normally a Navy tries to ensure an officer a well rounded experience, in which Shannon was deprived, because of necessity. After the MaLign are dealt with, will Shannon most likely be given command, or will she remain Haven's Sonja Hemphill counterpart, so to speak?

****** *

My apologies to all for the misstep on the "dream plots" thread. I knew it was toeing the line. More of an apology to you Duckk, for having to do that.

I was ready to get my plot on too!

Tom wrote:Contention: a simulated battle between Honor Harrington and Thomas Theisman would be wonderful to watch.
One between Honor Harrington and Lester Tourville would be even better.

A simulated battle between Honor Harrington and Thomas Theisman would be wonderful to watch.

One between Lester Tourville and Honor Harrington would be even better.

cthia wrote:

Tom wrote:Contention: a simulated battle between Honor Harrington and Thomas Theisman would be wonderful to watch.
One between Honor Harrington and Lester Tourville would be even better.

A simulated battle between Honor Harrington and Thomas Theisman would be wonderful to watch.

It sure would.

One between Lester Tourville and Honor Harrington would be even better.

For certain, and sideline bets would exceed any analysis. But I'm not so sure Lester would want a rematch. Even a friendly one in Sims, considering that he'd probably still be experiencing flashbacks to his last encounter against the Salamander, even far into the future. And he got his eggs poached before and I'm sure he'd much rather have them raw and still hanging between his legs, after already having them...regenerated.

Totally couldn't resist that.

niethil wrote:Who's gonna be in charge of the cheerleading squad ?

roseandheather wrote: Honestly, for me, it's a toss-up. There is absolutely no doubt that Shannon Foraker is a tactical genius, perhaps even surpassing Honor herself in terms of raw talent. But she's completely untried in single-ship command, let alone squadron or fleet command, and she's been at Bolthole for the best part of half a decade.

Hamish," Honor said, "this is the man who overthrew State Security, probably shot Saint-Just personally, single-handedly convinced Capital Fleet to support him, called a constitutional convention, turned power over to the first duly elected President of the star nation whose constitution he had personally rescued from the dust bin, and then spent the better part of four T-years fighting a six or seven-cornered civil war in order to defend that constitution.”

"And that place is?" Honor prompted as he paused.
"We don't know," Benjamin admitted, "but we have two straws in the wind, as it were. One is the existence of some top-secret project, one that was apparently launched under the Committee as much as several years before the McQueen Coup but which has been continued under Pritchart and Theisman. All we know about it for certain is its codename: 'Bolthole.' That, and the fact that Pierre and Saint-Just funneled huge amounts of money into whatever it is even at the height of the war and despite their worst financial problems. We don't have confirmation that Pritchart and Theisman have continued the same level of funding, but the discrepancy between what their revenues ought to be and what they're reporting certainly seems to suggest that some 'black project' is continuing to siphon off an awful lot of cash”.
“That's straw number one. Straw number two is the name of the one officer our sources have been able to identify as being closely associated with whatever 'Bolthole' is since Theisman's little revolution. I believe you know her."
"I do?" Honor was startled and it showed.
"Oh, indeed you do," Benjamin said with something almost like grim amusement. "Her name is Vice Admiral Shannon Foraker."
"Oh, my God." Honor abruptly sat all the way back in her chair. "Foraker? You're sure?"
"We can't be one hundred percent positive. All we can say for certain is that her name appeared on the promotion lists, that we haven't been able to find her anywhere else, and that at least two separate sources within the Republic have suggested that where she disappeared to is wherever 'Bolthole' hangs out." The Protector shrugged. "There's no possible way to confirm it, but if I were a secretary of war who had some sort of high-cost project in applied research and development going on somewhere and I had someone of Foraker's demonstrated abilities to put in charge of it, I know what I'd be doing with her."
"You and I both," Honor agreed feelingly.