Upcoming designs: regarding the Apollo ACM...

SharkHunter wrote:--big snip--

StealthSeeker wrote: So for most large wall to wall battles in the future it would be difficult to have more missiles in flight than available control links. But I guess, in the right conditions it's still possible.

Then again, in a wall against wall situation I wouldn't be using Mk16s I would be using Mk23s for their extra punch against the armor. So whether or not if it was possible, which anything is possible, I don't think it probable that they would make the adaptation. The Mk16 is a great intermediate missile with appropriate intermediate capabilities.

So my answer is NO they are not going to do it, not that they couldn't do it.

Part of the thought is that by now, most of the "known universe" in terms of space naval officers ought to know that 'wall to wall' vs. the RMN means wasted ships. So the thread topic has been for smaller units and groupings, using a potential, to-be-designed and deployed "ACM-B" variant controlling other missiles like the -16.

That would allow, for example, even a single RMN ship with a Mycroft plus an ammo ship or pod loaded freighter to generate and control enough offensive firepower to pretty control much any "mobile battle space" [primarily for convoy protection] other than a gravity wave or an ambush where the RMN ship itself can be forced within missile range of the enemy combatants.

I think that you are making, at least to a degree, my counter point for me.

A Mycroft system is not a single control platform, it is several, with all of them linked together within a system defense grid. Each of these several platforms is made up of control links to the missiles, counter missiles and their control, the computer power to manage the missiles that are connected to it's control links and a independent power source. I don't think I read anywhere that the Mycroft platforms are manned though. Which means that there needs to be a human near by in some sort of ship that has a link to the platform to tell Mycroft to commence an attack. As the missile control computer power is part of the Mycroft platform the only thing the link between it and the ship are going to require is more or less basic communication links that allows someone on the ship to sit at a terminal (or several terminals) to talk to the computers on Mycroft. I think a relatively small ship could easily perform that task. And that ship would not need to use any of it's own missile control links. And the Mycroft system has Keyhole-two control links for the Mk23/Mk23-e and for the Mk25/Mk23-f 4 stage system defense missiles. There will be no Mk16 missiles used in that engagement. The enemy ships will never be allowed to come close enough for them to be used.

As Mycroft is not portable there will never be an instance of it being included in a convoy or even in a situation where a DD will show up in a system towing a Mycroft platform and accompanied by a cargo ship full of Mk16's in flatpacks. So since it is not a situation that is very likely to occur frequently, if at all, I don't think that they will see a need to build a control missile to match up with Mk16 missiles.

So my answer is still NO, they will never want to build the control missile you are talking about, not that they couldn't.

People like to think Skynet will be human controlled. It's possible that it might be a bit harder to turn off than it was to turn on.....

kzt wrote:People like to think Skynet will be human controlled. It's possible that it might be a bit harder to turn off than it was to turn on.....

Well, in this case Mycroft has no production facilities, it can't build more of itself or of it's missiles and it can't move outside of the system it's in. So it could wreck havoc in the system its deployed into but once it shot it's load of missiles, its done. And in the case of the Honorverse, There are people on other planets so the loss of one planet full of people wouldn't exterminate the human species. The weakness of Mycroft is that it can't move so a salvo of missiles on a ballistic flight would take one out, if you knew where it was. Honor did something like this with armed recon drones.

If I was on Beowulf I wouldn't be that worried.

StealthSeeker wrote:I think that you are making, at least to a degree, my counter point for me.

A Mycroft system is not a single control platform, it is several, with all of them linked together within a system defense grid. Each of these several platforms is made up of control links to the missiles, counter missiles and their control, the computer power to manage the missiles that are connected to it's control links and a independent power source. I don't think I read anywhere that the Mycroft platforms are manned though. Which means that there needs to be a human near by in some sort of ship that has a link to the platform to tell Mycroft to commence an attack. As the missile control computer power is part of the Mycroft platform the only thing the link between it and the ship are going to require is more or less basic communication links that allows someone on the ship to sit at a terminal (or several terminals) to talk to the computers on Mycroft. I think a relatively small ship could easily perform that task. And that ship would not need to use any of it's own missile control links. And the Mycroft system has Keyhole-two control links for the Mk23/Mk23-e and for the Mk25/Mk23-f 4 stage system defense missiles. There will be no Mk16 missiles used in that engagement. The enemy ships will never be allowed to come close enough for them to be used.

I always envisioned the Mycroft nodes as closer to Keyhole IIs - where they are fire-control relays; but all the computers (and tac department controlling them) are somewhere else. (on the SD(P) in the case of Keyhole II. On a station, fort, or planetary defense center in the case of Mycroft)

Given the 62x comm speed FTL gives you you don't need the computers anywhere near the final Mycroft. IIRC you'd have less fire-control lag from a fort in planetary orbit using Mycrofts to shoot at something on the far side of the sun than a pre-Apollo MDM would have had at the end of it's powered attack run.


But I admit to not remembering if we were explicitly told where the controlling computers for Mycroft would reside.

Jonathan_S wrote:Given the 62x comm speed FTL gives you you don't need the computers anywhere near the final Mycroft. IIRC you'd have less fire-control lag from a fort in planetary orbit ...

As has been said, often, "Space is big! Really, REALLY big!"

as an example, the communications lag from the MWJ Astro Service control to Landing City on Manticore via FTL relays around Manticore-A was 17 minutes, IIRC. (Vince will probable correct me with textev. )

The communications lag for the situation you suggest is far, far, far too long to accommodate a Fire-Control Loop fire missiles.

Weird Harold wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Given the 62x comm speed FTL gives you you don't need the computers anywhere near the final Mycroft. IIRC you'd have less fire-control lag from a fort in planetary orbit ...

As has been said, often, "Space is big! Really, REALLY big!"

as an example, the communications lag from the MWJ Astro Service control to Landing City on Manticore via FTL relays around Manticore-A was 17 minutes, IIRC. (Vince will probable correct me with textev. )

The communications lag for the situation you suggest is far, far, far too long to accommodate a Fire-Control Loop fire missiles.

So, in the Honorverse, 3 stage MDM with lightspeed communication links do not exist.

Might want to revise your prognosis.

Or agree, that at such time lags, there really is no such thing as "control". It is more, fire and "forget".

Jonathan_S wrote:

StealthSeeker wrote:I think that you are making, at least to a degree, my counter point for me.

A Mycroft system is not a single control platform, it is several, with all of them linked together within a system defense grid. Each of these several platforms is made up of control links to the missiles, counter missiles and their control, the computer power to manage the missiles that are connected to it's control links and a independent power source. I don't think I read anywhere that the Mycroft platforms are manned though. Which means that there needs to be a human near by in some sort of ship that has a link to the platform to tell Mycroft to commence an attack. As the missile control computer power is part of the Mycroft platform the only thing the link between it and the ship are going to require is more or less basic communication links that allows someone on the ship to sit at a terminal (or several terminals) to talk to the computers on Mycroft. I think a relatively small ship could easily perform that task. And that ship would not need to use any of it's own missile control links. And the Mycroft system has Keyhole-two control links for the Mk23/Mk23-e and for the Mk25/Mk23-f 4 stage system defense missiles. There will be no Mk16 missiles used in that engagement. The enemy ships will never be allowed to come close enough for them to be used.

I always envisioned the Mycroft nodes as closer to Keyhole IIs - where they are fire-control relays; but all the computers (and tac department controlling them) are somewhere else. (on the SD(P) in the case of Keyhole II. On a station, fort, or planetary defense center in the case of Mycroft)

Given the 62x comm speed FTL gives you you don't need the computers anywhere near the final Mycroft. IIRC you'd have less fire-control lag from a fort in planetary orbit using Mycrofts to shoot at something on the far side of the sun than a pre-Apollo MDM would have had at the end of it's powered attack run.


But I admit to not remembering if we were explicitly told where the controlling computers for Mycroft would reside.

In the last few paragraphs of chapter 33 in ART Honor talks about compairing Moriarity and Mycroft missile control systems. Honor states that Mycroft is a couple of dozen Keyhole-Two platforms parked at various places. So the "Mycroft system" is not portable. Honor states that the Mycroft platform, unlike Moriarity, has an independent powere source. Also, unlike Moriarity, Mycroft is crammed full of active antimissile defense. Honor also states that Mycroft platforms will have all the supporting hardware and software normally packed into the deploying ship of the wall.

There is no mention of life support systems or anybody being on-board the platform. Honor does talk about the Mycroft system's survivability as being high due to redundancy of the platforms. So if the platforms are so "expendable" I don't see them having people on them.

So,....
Mycroft is not portable
Mycroft is Keyhole-Two based (FTL links)
Mycroft has system hardware/software to control the missiles
Mycroft has it's own power source
Mycroft is armed with self defense counter missiles
Mycroft is unmanned
Mycroft "system" has many/redundant platforms

It would seem that Mycroft just needs someone with a control terminal and pass codes to show up and tell it to shoot. That control terminal could be on just about anything of any size that has a working communications link.

Weird Harold wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Given the 62x comm speed FTL gives you you don't need the computers anywhere near the final Mycroft. IIRC you'd have less fire-control lag from a fort in planetary orbit ...

As has been said, often, "Space is big! Really, REALLY big!"

as an example, the communications lag from the MWJ Astro Service control to Landing City on Manticore via FTL relays around Manticore-A was 17 minutes, IIRC. (Vince will probable correct me with textev. )

The communications lag for the situation you suggest is far, far, far too long to accommodate a Fire-Control Loop fire missiles.

Junction to manticore (7 lighthours) should be about 7 minutes via Hermes. Manticore orbit to the hyper limit on the far side of the star should be about 25 light minutes,or less than 25 seconds FTL.
Whereas an MDM has about a 23 light second powered range...

So I was a little off. But the lag is at least comparable, for any shot within the inner system. And you wouldn't take a super long shot to outside the hyper limit. For that matter you probably wouldn't take a shot to the far hyperlimit because there's nothing over there that needs instant defense. You could wait until the enemy got a bit closer.

StealthSeeker wrote:It would seem that Mycroft just needs someone with a control terminal and pass codes to show up and tell it to shoot.

Or that little detail could be handled in other ways. Not that I'm saying its Skynet, but it's Skynet.

kzt wrote:

StealthSeeker wrote:It would seem that Mycroft just needs someone with a control terminal and pass codes to show up and tell it to shoot.

Or that little detail could be handled in other ways. Not that I'm saying its Skynet, but it's Skynet.

Paranoid about computers are we?