What did Schuler know?

It seems fairly clear to me its possible Schuler knew of Nimue's PICA being on Safehold. The information was certainly on Safehold at the time of the War against the Fallen and the Fallen may well have had it (was that what Kody was told?)

The Brethren had Nimue's name and given the small ship crews it would surely have been possible to determine Nimue Alban is likely the Nimue in question, that she had a PICA that came on board and was subsequently destroyed and deduce from there that if something is coming back it's probably that PICA.

If he did get this information he would probably be able to get from there to the simple fact Langhorne's plan had been destroyed before the first colonist set foot on Safehold - so how would he react?

If he did know what would his options have been (assuming Nimue's attitudes represent a reasonable approach to Federation tech use)?

Could he have found the PICA without making the entire planet stand out to Gbaba sensors? Probably not.

Could he have predicted the time period in which "Merlin" would be reactivated? Possibly - Shan Wei could have used the period in early discussions as the duration before retech could start.

Well even if he had the capacity he wouldn't have created a PICA - Merlin certainly didn't think of doing it and he's got more reason to do so.

Leave an AI to monitor the situation? Possible but he doesn't seem to have done so but there could be one ready to wake up under the temple.

How would he think Nimue would react to the church as he thought it would be in 1,000 years time?

Is it possible he would leave a message warning the church? More than one message? Could Clyntan be doing this because he's got a message from Schuler saying that a demon will arise at this time period? Could someone in the church have the name Nimue and recognise the new Seijin as the foretold demon?

Thoughts? If he had the information is there anything he could do (ignoring the PICA thing as I honestly believe that creating one would have been a social taboo) to head Nimue off before she derailed the plan?

Thurgrak wrote:It seems fairly clear to me its possible Schuler knew of Nimue's PICA being on Safehold. The information was certainly on Safehold at the time of the War against the Fallen and the Fallen may well have had it (was that what Kody was told?)

Seems almost completely impossible; doctor Pei and her followers weren't imcompetent. And almost all of them died in the Alexandria destruction, so the possibility of information lear is almost completely zero.

The Brethren had Nimue's name

Only name, nothing more. And they could not be sure that it was real name, it may be pseudonym.

\ and given the small ship crews it would surely have been possible to determine Nimue Alban

Completely impossible; for what possible reason the Ark ships may have the warships roosters in databanks? And that prove nothing; the Nimue name could be only a coincidence, or deliberate trick to fool the investigators.

that she had a PICA that came on board and was subsequently destroyed and deduce from there that if something is coming back it's probably that PICA.

It would take a lot of approximation. Generally speaking - that would be a wild theory with no confirmation. On that scale, there would be a millions of other possibilites; for example, that some warships actually survived and was able to sneak the blockade and go after Ark fleet. Or that there is the second Ark fleet, launched without their knowlege. All is possible.

Thurgrak wrote:It seems fairly clear to me its possible Schuler knew of Nimue's PICA being on Safehold.

Schueler is definitely an interesting character, he was probably not in line with Chihiro, and his actions will likely become relevant to the overall story in only one or two books. But, had he known about Nimue Alban, her cave would have been found and destroyed. That she's around is probably the most convincing argument against that wild theory.

anwi wrote:

Thurgrak wrote:It seems fairly clear to me its possible Schuler knew of Nimue's PICA being on Safehold.

Schueler is definitely an interesting character, he was probably not in line with Chihiro, and his actions will likely become relevant to the overall story in only one or two books. But, had he known about Nimue Alban, her cave would have been found and destroyed. That she's around is probably the most convincing argument against that wild theory.

I pretty much agree with anwi here. I do have to say, however, that, Langhorne had to have had a profile on Nimue. Before she transferred off, she would have been listed as an officer on Pei Kauyung's ship. So his records would have had whatever info that such records keep plus a note that she had transferred.

So Langhorne would have known, or at least the info on Nimue Alban and who she was.

Don

Thurgrak wrote:It seems fairly clear to me its possible Schuler knew of Nimue's PICA being on Safehold. The information was certainly on Safehold at the time of the War against the Fallen and the Fallen may well have had it (was that what Kody was told?)

The Brethren had Nimue's name and given the small ship crews it would surely have been possible to determine Nimue Alban is likely the Nimue in question, that she had a PICA that came on board and was subsequently destroyed and deduce from there that if something is coming back it's probably that PICA.

If he did get this information he would probably be able to get from there to the simple fact Langhorne's plan had been destroyed before the first colonist set foot on Safehold - so how would he react?

If he did know what would his options have been (assuming Nimue's attitudes represent a reasonable approach to Federation tech use)?

Could he have found the PICA without making the entire planet stand out to Gbaba sensors? Probably not.

Could he have predicted the time period in which "Merlin" would be reactivated? Possibly - Shan Wei could have used the period in early discussions as the duration before retech could start.

Well even if he had the capacity he wouldn't have created a PICA - Merlin certainly didn't think of doing it and he's got more reason to do so.

Leave an AI to monitor the situation? Possible but he doesn't seem to have done so but there could be one ready to wake up under the temple.

How would he think Nimue would react to the church as he thought it would be in 1,000 years time?

Is it possible he would leave a message warning the church? More than one message? Could Clyntan be doing this because he's got a message from Schuler saying that a demon will arise at this time period? Could someone in the church have the name Nimue and recognise the new Seijin as the foretold demon?

Thoughts? If he had the information is there anything he could do (ignoring the PICA thing as I honestly believe that creating one would have been a social taboo) to head Nimue off before she derailed the plan?

I don't think Schuler would have known of Nimue except by records of her transfer to the admiral's staff. Nimue/Merlin has stated she never met Schuler and the Brotherhood wouldn't have known the name Nimue, until 350 years after Jeremiah Knowles death. From what was said about the Archangels withdrawing early after the destruction of the original colony command center, I don't think that Schuler was present on Safehold after Jeremiah's cover letter was unsealed and read by the Abbot of St. Z's. With the destruction of the original colony's headquarters, I would assume that most of the technology base that the Archangels were using including the life extending anti-geriatric medical technology would have been destroyed in the blast. So the expected lifespan of the Archangels was probably cut short. As far as Schuler was concerned, Nimue was a "dead issue".

Just my humble opinion and speculation.

jlrice54 wrote:I don't think Schuler would have known of Nimue except by records of her transfer to the admiral's staff. Nimue/Merlin has stated she never met Schuler and the Brotherhood wouldn't have known the name Nimue, until 350 years after Jeremiah Knowles death. From what was said about the Archangels withdrawing early after the destruction of the original colony command center, I don't think that Schuler was present on Safehold after Jeremiah's cover letter was unsealed and read by the Abbot of St. Z's. With the destruction of the original colony's headquarters, I would assume that most of the technology base that the Archangels were using including the life extending anti-geriatric medical technology would have been destroyed in the blast. So the expected lifespan of the Archangels was probably cut short. As far as Schuler was concerned, Nimue was a "dead issue".

Just my humble opinion and speculation.

While I agree with you that Schueler could not have known about Nimue, I'm afraid you are wrong about the technology of the angels after Pei's nuke.

At the time of the destruction of Langhorne's headquarters, there was still one ship in orbit around Safehold. This ship contained a built-in fully automated fabrication facility. David has told us that this fabrication facility was used after the Angelic wars to construct the new Temple, and also to rebuild the Rakurai. The new Temple is actually on or near the location of the old headquarters which Pei nuked.

So the surviving Angels had all the technology they needed, and a fabrication facility far superior to Owl's to make any new equipment that the Angels wanted.

As for the timing of the Knowles revelation, I am fairly certain that Jeremiah Knowles chose 350 years after his death because he was confident that all the Angels would be dead by then. Jeremiah Knowles himself was an Adam, with an extended lifespan. No Angel could be expected to live a natural life another 350 years after that.

This is a bit sarcastic and I apologise for that.

So no-one thinks it possible that the other Brethren type groups in other enclaves might have adopted a different approach to Knowles's 350 year wait to open the document?

And we seem to have the consensus that the stuff produced by the Hamilcar would have been capable of defeating the stealth tech of something constructed with the facilities of an entire terraforming fleet to be undetectable to known equipment and placed in the optimum location chosen from the crust of an entire planet. Could anyone who thinks that the cave would have been found explain why Merlin isn't using the same tech to see inside the Temple?

And for reference the PICA was listed in Langhorne's "Master Lists" (OAR) which is why Nimue transferred and died. Whatever else (unless Langhorne purged what would based on the capacity of the verifier memory sphere have been a tiny amount of information) that information - ownership of the PICA and presence on the ship at some point - would still be on Langhorne's files so Schuler or whoever was in charge after Langhorne died would have had access to it and a general search in the records for "Nimue" would have found it irrespective of what Schuler or anyone else knew of Nimue before that. I would also argue that IF the search took place the fact there was a PICA and the transfer would make it fairly obvious what happened.

I'm not saying I'm right - in fact I suspect I'm not but unless there is some serious textev I'm missing the following is indisputable.

1) There were multiple enclave groups with the information the Brethren had which includes the name Nimue

2) One of those groups COULD have been found by Schuler or other archangels of the Langhornite faction

3) There's no particularly rational method using demonstrated tech capacities (SNARCs and whatever scanners are on the OBS) of determining small scale power/materials at long range with low power methods through planetary crusts when those objects are highly stealthed and know exactly what to protect against, if there is the OBS should be assumed to know exactly what Merlin (an unstealthed publicly available metallic object with a power plant) is - and why would a PICA be programmed into the OBS as something allowed? The fact the series didn't end a couple of hundred pages into OAR in a flash of light as Merlin was vaporised by the OBS is the best evidence that sensing Merlin's cave was impossible with low power methods.

Thurgrak wrote:
I'm not saying I'm right - in fact I suspect I'm not but unless there is some serious textev I'm missing the following is indisputable.

1) There were multiple enclave groups with the information the Brethren had which includes the name Nimue

As I recall, the Brethern's knowledge of Nimue was accidental. Jeremiah Knowles was not intended to know about it (he overheard it, if I remember correctly) and therefore other enclaves would not necessarily know about Nimue.

The records- one of millions of such records -reflect that Lt. Commander Nimue Alban transferred to the fleet and all her stuff went with her.
That would be lost in the mass of records. Even more lost was the fact that the PICA didn't go.

tootall wrote:The records- one of millions of such records -reflect that Lt. Commander Nimue Alban transferred to the fleet and all her stuff went with her.
That would be lost in the mass of records. Even more lost was the fact that the PICA didn't go.

No one record in around 100,000 at most (around 100 ships in the Arc/decoy fleets) and even that depends on there being a lot of people around called Nimue. Possible I suppose but Nimue isn't a common name on Safehold (see Cayleb suggesting after Merlin rescues his wife that they name a daughter Nimue and Merlin says it would raise eyes or something similar). The colonists seem to have kept their names so it seems likely that Nimue was not a common name in the Federation.

Medicant - it's ambiguous. He describes it as having been learnt "mostly by accident" at one point. The next sentence refers to it never being Doctor Pei's intention that they would learn about it at all. There are consistent explanations which is that after Alexandria died someone told them the truth in some short form or that someone else in the Alexandria team didn't want the information lost in the event of something going wrong and told the colonists.