Technical next steps

n7axw wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:..."do we need this badly enough that we can risk being wrong?"

I think that is true for now. But eventually the problem that the OBS presents has to be confronted and dealt with. I hope there is an accessible computer somewhere with some info on it.

Don

Of course that's true for now -- "Now" being the time period up to a final resolution of the OBS problem, aka the duration of the current war plus a few months.

The logical place for a manual control of the OBS is the Temple, and the access to the Temple is (or should be) the ultimate goal of the current war.

I sometimes wonder if some secrets were held too closely on Safehold, and as a result have now been lost. For example, we have textev that in the past the Inquisition most likely could listen to whatever was said in every room in the temple. That's clearly not the case now, or Clyntahn would happily have gone after the Wylsynns for plotting against him long before he did, and we'd see very few vicars living in the temple, or even spending much time there.

So what happened? Was it considered to be a secret so powerful that only the Inquisitor General was told how to do it, and eventually one of them lost an election or died without passing that information along to his successor? Was it never written down, and known to so few people that a death or three could wipe out the knowledge of how to listen to the bugs scattered about the temple forever?

If this sounds farfetched, what would have happened to the knowledge of how to use the Key of Schueler if Paityr Wylsynn had been in Zion and had also died without being put to the Question? That information would have been gone for good, and possibly the knowledge that the Archangels would return after 1000 years as well, since that was part of the "Vision of Schueler" in the Key, which the Wylsynn family kept a very close secret.

Perhaps that's why the CoGA has been allowed to go so far off the rails - the technology that would have kept things in check has been forgotten. It may seem farfetched, but it would explain a lot. From a story standpoint that would make the restoration of those abilities or the sudden use of them by mortals (other than a Wylsynn)a bit of a Deus ex machina. However, RFC has set the stage for there to be something intelligent under the temple, so it won't be a surprise if/when it appears.

It would certainly be ironic if Langhorne's entire plan went off the rails because of excessive secrecy to avoid contamination from TF technology!

McGuiness wrote:
It would certainly be ironic if Langhorne's entire plan went off the rails because of excessive secrecy to avoid contamination from TF technology!

It wouldn't surprise me.
Maintaining a technological civilization takes effort and training.
I suspect Langhorne was a bit of a fanatic, with a touch of fantasist but with a profound ignorance as to the actual details of deep technological history (as opposed to political history)(as shown by some of the odd gaps in the proscriptions - stone age would be a better base to block technology but would be decidedly less comfortable).
I think he may have been looking to his own comfort rather more than he may have been willing to admit. (Clyntahn may have a bit of his or Bedard in his ancestry (both?)). The regression of the Tasmanian aboriginal culture after it was isolated by rising seal levels being an example - the knowledge of fishing was lost for example.
The major halts in technology occured due to low population and depopulation (war and disease).
Isolated cultures can stagnate but the very existence of the church undermines this, as does the existence of the scipts. Even the Egyptians innovated, they had to to avoid being swallowed by their neighbors. (BTW - the Egyptians were essentially a stone age culture, just like the Mayans and Inca, with a very small amount of bronze and the odd bit of nickel steel (meteorite iron)).
Iron is the first step up the steeper development slope.

RunsInShadows wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:IIRC, RFC has said that the OBS is capable of reloading and repairing itself.

Merlin's SNARC was blasted by the OBS when it got too close, so it is still capable of self-defense, at minimum.

I wonder to what extent it can reload. It has to get the mass from something. If you can force the Rakurai to expend enough munitions at fake targets, maybe you could deplete that mass. I wouldn't be opposed to setting some electrical devices, activated by mechanical timer, on Armageddon reef to try to make it fire.

I suspect that it wouldn't alert the "angels" given that they weren't alerted by Merlin's Snarc gettin blasted. That is unless it automatically blasts anything greater than a pebble that comes within range, meaning that it wasn't the detection of electronics that set it off. I would think that unlikely though because constantly shooting stuff out of space would give off quite a few emissions which is what they were trying to avoid in the first place.

For that matter, even fusion power plants need fuel, and they gotta get that from somewhere. On planet that might be simple enough, but in space that is a real problem unless they are running off of solar.

IIRC RFC said "I never said that the OBS couldn't reload itself..."

The OBS is solar powered, so don't hold out hope that it might run out of power for any fusion reactors. From OAR as Merlin and OWL discuss why OWL can't destroy it: "The kinetic bombardment and solar energy platforms are nested in the center of a sphere of area defense systems and passive scanners which no weapons at my disposal can hope to penetrate."

The defense systems around the OBS are primarily to zap any stray meteors and space debris that happen by. They also respond to TF technology that ventures too near, ie. the remote from Merlin's SNARC that he sent in to get a good look. The OBS is specifically programmed not to fire on technology the Archangels used on Safehold, such as Merlin's skimmer, or else it would have happily shot the Archangels out of the sky whenever they decided to make their scheduled round of visits to the various enclaves! (At least that's Merlin's theory and he's sticking to it.)

Merlin is acting as if the OBS can reload itself of course, not that the six loaded cells couldn't do massive damage and basically wipe Tellesberg and much of Old Charis off the map even if they couldn't be reloaded. Since OWL has remotes of various sizes and capabilities that can post propaganda on walls, deliver the mail, and fetch the Key of Schueler and deliver it to Nimue's cave, it's logical to assume that the OBS has similar remotes to search out appropriate rocks/asteroids that can be refined or formed into the proper shapes/materials for OBS ammunition.

The use of the Rakurai against the EoC would be the death knell for the Reformist movement, since its paladins would have been struck down by the vengeful fire of God. Of course the converse is also true if Merlin could convince the OBS to drop a rock on the Temple!

Many of us suspect that the Temple and a wide circle around it that includes Zion is a "no fire zone" that the OBS won't fire on under any circumstances. Otherwise the entire CoGA could be discredited by setting up a small generator close to the Temple, thus causing the Rakurai do its thing. Even if the OBS selected the smallest bar available to drop, the mere fact that the Rakurai fired on the Temple would be a clear demonstration of God's displeasure with its current management, which could possibly be spun into proof that He is upset with the entire CoGA as well. (Yeah, that's a stretch but Nahrmahn is really good at that sort of stuff.)

McGuiness wrote:The use of the Rakurai against the EoC would be the death knell for the Reformist movement, since its paladins would have been struck down by the vengeful fire of God. Of course the converse is also true if Merlin could convince the OBS to drop a rock on the Temple!

Many of us suspect that the Temple and a wide circle around it that includes Zion is a "no fire zone" that the OBS won't fire on under any circumstances. Otherwise the entire CoGA could be discredited by setting up a small generator close to the Temple, thus causing the Rakurai do its thing. Even if the OBS selected the smallest bar available to drop, the mere fact that the Rakurai fired on the Temple would be a clear demonstration of God's displeasure with its current management, which could possibly be spun into proof that He is upset with the entire CoGA as well. (Yeah, that's a stretch but Nahrmahn is really good at that sort of stuff.)

I basically agree with everything you said. But I will add a bit more regarding the thought of arranging for the Rakurai to attack the Temple. RFC has ruled that out, pointing out that Merlin would never ever consider doing it because it would mean wiping out the entire city, full of innocent civilians. Merlin is not going to do that. So, while it may be interesting to speculate on whether the Rakurai is programmed with a no-fire zone around the Temple, the question has no effect in the books. Not that you implied anything otherwise, McGuinness; I just want to point it out before any great debates begin.

Weird Harold wrote:
Of course that's true for now -- "Now" being the time period up to a final resolution of the OBS problem, aka the duration of the current war plus a few months.

The logical place for a manual control of the OBS is the Temple, and the access to the Temple is (or should be) the ultimate goal of the current war.

I agree with you about the logical place for the manual control being the temple. We will eventually see if logic lines up with reality in this matter or if it is simply a way of being wrong with confidence.

SWM wrote:

McGuiness wrote:Many of us suspect that the Temple and a wide circle around it that includes Zion is a "no fire zone" that the OBS won't fire on under any circumstances. Otherwise the entire CoGA could be discredited by setting up a small generator close to the Temple, thus causing the Rakurai do its thing. Even if the OBS selected the smallest bar available to drop, the mere fact that the Rakurai fired on the Temple would be a clear demonstration of God's displeasure with its current management, which could possibly be spun into proof that He is upset with the entire CoGA as well. (Yeah, that's a stretch but Nahrmahn is really good at that sort of stuff.)

I basically agree with everything you said. But I will add a bit more regarding the thought of arranging for the Rakurai to attack the Temple. RFC has ruled that out, pointing out that Merlin would never ever consider doing it because it would mean wiping out the entire city, full of innocent civilians. Merlin is not going to do that. So, while it may be interesting to speculate on whether the Rakurai is programmed with a no-fire zone around the Temple, the question has no effect in the books. Not that you implied anything otherwise, McGuinness; I just want to point it out before any great debates begin.

Good point. Merlin's objections did cross my mind - in fact I've noted them in previous posts over the past few years whenever the possibility of getting the OBS to bombard the temple has been discussed. That's why I implied that the OBS could drop as small a bar as possible on any "bait" set up near the Temple, which I just highlighted in bold in your quote above.

Still, I should have explicitly noted that Merlin would veto any such scheme so we would avoid a debate that RFC has already settled for us. Mea culpa!

SWM wrote:I basically agree with everything you said. But I will add a bit more regarding the thought of arranging for the Rakurai to attack the Temple. RFC has ruled that out, pointing out that Merlin would never ever consider doing it because it would mean wiping out the entire city, full of innocent civilians. Merlin is not going to do that. So, while it may be interesting to speculate on whether the Rakurai is programmed with a no-fire zone around the Temple, the question has no effect in the books. Not that you implied anything otherwise, McGuinness; I just want to point it out before any great debates begin.

I also agree with McGuinness for the most part, however I don't like letting one source of conjecture, like how the OBS is thought to be programmed, to narrow thoughts and ideas which might be what is actually true, if unlikely. Gotta think outside the box a little from time to time to keep the ideas flowing.

RFC may have ruled out hitting the city directly, but what about hitting open land near the city, and manufacturing evidence leading back to the Go4 showing that they were tampering with things better left alone. Doubtful that anyone would believe it, but it is a thought. Just hitting some part of the church lands would be problematic especially if it was taken as a warning shot.
.

RunsInShadows wrote:

SWM wrote:I basically agree with everything you said. But I will add a bit more regarding the thought of arranging for the Rakurai to attack the Temple. RFC has ruled that out, pointing out that Merlin would never ever consider doing it because it would mean wiping out the entire city, full of innocent civilians. Merlin is not going to do that. So, while it may be interesting to speculate on whether the Rakurai is programmed with a no-fire zone around the Temple, the question has no effect in the books. Not that you implied anything otherwise, McGuinness; I just want to point it out before any great debates begin.

I also agree with McGuinness for the most part, however I don't like letting one source of conjecture, like how the OBS is thought to be programmed, to narrow thoughts and ideas which might be what is actually true, if unlikely. Gotta think outside the box a little from time to time to keep the ideas flowing.

RFC may have ruled out hitting the city directly, but what about hitting open land near the city, and manufacturing evidence leading back to the Go4 showing that they were tampering with things better left alone. Doubtful that anyone would believe it, but it is a thought. Just hitting some part of the church lands would be problematic especially if it was taken as a warning shot.
.

Merlin doesn't want anyone starting to think that technology should be left alone. In addition, he is concerned about the possibility that the Rakurai might wake up something under the Temple. So he does not want even the slightest risk triggering the Rakurai if he can avoid it. He is certainly not going to deliberately trigger it.

SWM wrote:Merlin doesn't want anyone starting to think that technology should be left alone. In addition, he is concerned about the possibility that the Rakurai might wake up something under the Temple. So he does not want even the slightest risk triggering the Rakurai if he can avoid it. He is certainly not going to deliberately trigger it.

I certainly agree with what you've said. Logically, that means that the EoC needs to seize the temple before the millennial visit of the Archangels. So once the war in Siddarmark is over, the temple is the next logical target. Besides, Cayleb and Sharleyan have both promised to send the fleet sailing into Temple Bay and to start unloading the troops. The Haarahld VIIs were designed with that mission in mind, although they're certainly going to be useful in the Gulf of Dohlar and Gorath Bay.

But in the next year or two ... Zion and the Temple may find out what it's like to be invaded. One happy aspect is that every military force in Zion is under the command of the Inquisition, so it's what you'd call a very target rich environment!