Beating up Frontier Fleet, mercilessly

Jonathan_S wrote:And IIRC the microfusion power plants in pods and missiles also are designed around maintenance intervals that aren't much longer than their onboard fuel reserves. So even if you ran a hydrogen line to them to keep the reactor's fuel tank topped up you don't get a noticeable increase in sustained operation. You still have to power down, then strip it for refurbishment, or risk it going "boom".

(Don't know what the operational interval on the tractor emitters are - if you ran them off external power they might last significantly longer than the onboard fusion plant could; or they might not)

Yes, David said that integral to the micro-fusion design were some sacrifical parts that were replaced with every refuling/refurbishment. He also later stated that such parts were small and easily made in any peoperly equipped warship's workshops, so supply of said parts wasn't an issue.

I don't believe he ever mentioned the tractor's reliability, but since 99.9% of their functional lifetimes they are used in a zero force environment (ie inside the compensator field), they are rarely exerted, even though they are on all the time.

Theemile wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:And IIRC the microfusion power plants in pods and missiles also are designed around maintenance intervals that aren't much longer than their onboard fuel reserves. So even if you ran a hydrogen line to them to keep the reactor's fuel tank topped up you don't get a noticeable increase in sustained operation. You still have to power down, then strip it for refurbishment, or risk it going "boom".

(Don't know what the operational interval on the tractor emitters are - if you ran them off external power they might last significantly longer than the onboard fusion plant could; or they might not)

Yes, David said that integral to the micro-fusion design were some sacrifical parts that were replaced with every refuling/refurbishment. He also later stated that such parts were small and easily made in any peoperly equipped warship's workshops, so supply of said parts wasn't an issue.

I don't believe he ever mentioned the tractor's reliability, but since 99.9% of their functional lifetimes they are used in a zero force environment (ie inside the compensator field), they are rarely exerted, even though they are on all the time.

Some questions (and the implications of the answers) about modern Manticoran missile pods with on-board micro-fusion reactors:

1) What is the design lifetime of the missile pods tractors? If the pods were designed to be used tactically and not strategically, the tractors probably also have a short duration before they require servicing.

2) What are the implications of having powered-up missile pod micro-fusion reactors tractored against the hull? For some background information on the micro-fusion reactors, see Missile power systems.

Now, instead of:

for at least a few moments before launching a full broadside of missiles, a Saganami-C-class CA has twenty-odd individual fusion plants roaring away inside its launch tubes

a ship with missile pods tractored against its hull has the missile pods micro-fusion reactors operating in direct contact with the hull for an extended period of time.

If any one of those micro-fusion reactors fail, for any reason whatsoever, the ship has a fusion bomb (or the next best thing to it) going off in direct contact with (or extremely close proximity to) its hull!*

Which is an even stronger argument for ships that need to carry missile pods externally to have:

Either an umbilical providing power, telemetry and control of the missile pod when not deployed astern of the ship (this would allow the micro-fusion plant to off until just prior to use)
or:
A physical mounting point for the missile pod (this would avoid wear and tear on the tractor)
or:
Preferably, both the umbilical and the physical mounting point.

By not running the micro-fusion reactor until immediately prior to use, this would vastly reduce (or even completely avoid) the possibility for an accidental explosion that could either cripple or destroy the ship. It would also avoid the adverse effects of the radiation produced by the missile pods micro-fusion reactors (both on the ship's crew and its systems, especially its sensors).

* Keep in mind the ships most likely to be benefit from and needing to carry missile pods externally limpeted to their hull will be either old style SDs (with their armor) or smaller ships, with much less (or practically no) armor.

Edited to correct punctuation.

Weird Harold wrote:

wastedfly wrote:Zero power is required with a thing called a physical HOOK.

Then there's no need for a power cord either.

Pod endurance is ONLY a problem when using the pod's tractor to limpet the pod to the hull.

Electronics need to stay warm>> Power drain
--->> Maybe not in 2000 years.

Batteries do not hold their power levels.
--->> Drains over time
----->> Maybe in 2k years they have 100% efficiency

wastedfly wrote:

WLBjork wrote:Just wondering why Relax wants a power cord as it appears that wireless technology is the norm for the Honorverse?

Planetary power is beamed from orbital collectors. The Beginnings book makes it clear that this is old tech, very stable and reliable. OBS has the modified collector being used to run the drug lab.

Tesla walked through a field "planting" fluorescent tubes and getting then to light up, it's a shame its taken the world so long to develop this tech.

Nonetheless, we can consider that wires are unnecessary.

To start with years ago he was bitching about beamed power via microwave frequency as extremely easy. Since people then bitched back, that this was somehow too advanced tech for the Honorverse as it is stuck in the 1950's for its tech structure(sarcasm, but true), then a power cord is easily implemented as surely 100+ year old technology today will still be implemented 2000 years from now. Especially in light that EVA is routine if it had to be hooked up manually.

As for why the world did not develop beamed power. Open a physics book, or a phone book under 'C' for clue before opening your trap. Efficiency.

Take your own advice. The prototype Wardenclyffe World Transmitter was to use a 200kW alternator and was predicted to be able to transmit anywhere in the world at 95% or better efficiency. Not only that, but it would also allow the transmission of information - telephone, telegraph, fax, stock market tickers; establish a marine navigation and location service and allow the synchronisation of precision time pieces - in effect, the internet would have arrived in the early 20th Century.

Sadly, Tesla doesn't seem to have been good with money, and ended up having to surrender the facility incomplete to get out of debt. Due to his other successes though, I would not want to bet against his capabilities.

WLBjork wrote:Take your own advice. The prototype Wardenclyffe World Transmitter was to use a 200kW alternator and was predicted to be able to transmit anywhere in the world at 95% or better efficiency. Not only that, but it would also allow the transmission of information - telephone, telegraph, fax, stock market tickers; establish a marine navigation and location service and allow the synchronisation of precision time pieces - in effect, the internet would have arrived in the early 20th Century.

Sadly, Tesla doesn't seem to have been good with money, and ended up having to surrender the facility incomplete to get out of debt. Due to his other successes though, I would not want to bet against his capabilities.

How completely stupid do you think physicists are? Very simple reason it never worked. RESISTENCE and dispersion. Try a physics book for inductance, impedance or basic circuits book for air or earth.

Resonance of standing waves has long since been understood, except for those who think the world is Warehouse 13 and everyone is just too stupid to see it.

Relax wrote:

WLBjork wrote:Take your own advice. The prototype Wardenclyffe World Transmitter was to use a 200kW alternator and was predicted to be able to transmit anywhere in the world at 95% or better efficiency. Not only that, but it would also allow the transmission of information - telephone, telegraph, fax, stock market tickers; establish a marine navigation and location service and allow the synchronisation of precision time pieces - in effect, the internet would have arrived in the early 20th Century.

Sadly, Tesla doesn't seem to have been good with money, and ended up having to surrender the facility incomplete to get out of debt. Due to his other successes though, I would not want to bet against his capabilities.

How completely stupid do you think physicists are? Very simple reason it never worked. RESISTENCE and dispersion. Try a physics book for inductance, impedance or basic circuits book for air or earth.

Resonance of standing waves has long since been understood, except for those who think the world is Warehouse 13 and everyone is just too stupid to see it.

Well said.

Theemile wrote:"wastedfly"]"WLBjork"]Just wondering why Relax wants a power cord as it appears that wireless technology is the norm for the Honorverse?

Planetary power is beamed from orbital collectors. The Beginnings book makes it clear that this is old tech, very stable and reliable. OBS has the modified collector being used to run the drug lab.

Tesla walked through a field "planting" fluorescent tubes and getting then to light up, it's a shame its taken the world so long to develop this tech.

Nonetheless, we can consider that wires are unnecessary.

To start with years ago he was bitching about beamed power via microwave frequency as extremely easy. Since people then bitched back, that this was somehow too advanced tech for the Honorverse as it is stuck in the 1950's for its tech structure(sarcasm, but true), then a power cord is easily implemented as surely 100+ year old technology today will still be implemented 2000 years from now. Especially in light that EVA is routine if it had to be hooked up manually.

As for why the world did not develop beamed power. Open a physics book, or a phone book under 'C' for clue before opening your trap. Efficiency.[/quote]

In my Company's previous headquarters, a glass/steel tower built ~1970, the CEO' office was on the top floor. Unfortunately, this office was ~100' from an ATT microwave transceiver beam shooting from their nearby office to a repeater tower ~10 miles away. Of course, no one knew this because the beam is 300' in the air, so no one could accidentially run into it in the "clear" airspace.

We had all sorts of weird effects in that office. People had headaches, electronics burned out, PC networks and telephones wouldn't work, security systems went off randomly. It took forever to figure out the problem, eventually the office was electromagnetically hardened in every way imaginable.

All this because there was enough microwave backscatter and coronal effects from the "telephone" microwave beam to slowly fry an egg.

So, not only do you have conversion loss on both sides, there is considerable scatter loss, even in tight beam applications. That and you don't want us biologicals to get in the beam's way....[/quote]


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That story will warm the heart of most good union members .....

-- Stewart

stewart wrote:That story will warm the heart of most good union members .....
-- Stewart

Has nothing to do with union or non union.

Has everything to do with experience in a niche field that is not regulated as there literally is nothing to regulate. Beamed microwave energy just does not happen except to space communications. In that instance we have regs and have had regs for a very long time for setback distances from the antennas in question so people do not fry themselves.

Certification works in everyday fields where installations are dime a dozen. Helps weed out complete incompetence in workers down to only incompetence. Just because you have a cert doesn't mean you actually know what is going on(requires experience and background science). It means you generally have an idea of where to look to start solving the problem.

Back to the point of the thread though, about beating up on FF when they come to call "commerce raiding wise", and related to other threads.

Somehow I think the further career of a FF squadron leader (presumably a commodore or rear admiral) is going to be exactly one salvo long, the same time period as Byng, Crandall, Filareta, and Dubroskaya enjoyed.

Leading to the question of how long before the FF admiralty basically tells the Mandarins to go to hell because none of them really want to tangle with long range missile fire any more. Perhaps that's when the Verge and Shell really start breaking into pieces, like Manticore hopes will happen.

Thoughts?

SharkHunter wrote:Back to the point of the thread though, about beating up on FF when they come to call "commerce raiding wise", and related to other threads.

Somehow I think the further career of a FF squadron leader (presumably a commodore or rear admiral) is going to be exactly one salvo long, the same time period as Byng, Crandall, Filareta, and Dubroskaya enjoyed.

...

Thoughts?

Let's talk about math.

Manticoran Merchant vessels: tens of thousands.
RMN escort vessels ever constructed: < 550 DDs, < 550 CLs, < 550 CAs. Many of these were lost in that rather violent series of wars, and only some of the survivors can be assigned to convoy escorts due to lots of other pressing problems.
FF warships = many, many thousands.

So either the manticoran merchant marine is going to: a) travel in huge convoys (like 100+ ships) escorted by a few warships, or b) a lot of the manticoran merchants are not going to have any armed escorts, or c) very little of the huge manticoran merchant fleet is going to be doing merchant stuff.

A merchant ship that isn't in active commerce is going to have a lot of issues in fairly short order, as the operating expenses and note on the ship is quite a lot of money. So option C results in the majority of the Manticoran shippers getting liquidated in bankruptcy in fairly short order.

Option A seems reasonable at first glance, but exactly where do you need to send >800 million tons of shipping? The SL core is the obvious answer, but barring that we are dealing with a very limited number of places that can support anything like this.

So my guess is that most merchants will choose option B, because the finances force them to operate and the RMN has far too few ships to protect them. So they will be wandering system to system looking for any cargo they can find.

And this will mean that commerce raiders will mostly find single unescorted merchant ships, which they will promptly blow up.