CoGA submarines

Well, the general rule for lesser naval power is, that if the enemy controlled the surface - we would go underwater. And this rule were quite efficient; it may not be able to give you control over seas, but it definitely make the enemy war efforts much more difficult.

So, due to the Charis&Co surface domination - what about the possibility of Church&Co go underwater?

The Church already make a good step toward the screw propulsion, and have at least some data about modern mettalurgy and steam engines. Would it be possible for the Church and/or Dohlar to make the working submarine?

The good approximation of the submarine-building capabilites is the Ictineo II spanish submarine of 1860th. We could safely assume, that the 1860th Spain is not too far ahead of Church current capabilites. This small U-boat show, that it is at least theoretically possible to build the wooden-hulled submarine, capable of 30 meters dive and propelled by the thermal engine.

So:

- It is possible to build a watertight wooden hull, capable of stand the pressure of 30 meters. The Church, undoubtly, could do that.

- The powerplant could be more difficult. The Church have now at least the basics of steam engine theory, and were able to buildt at least simple single-expansion engines. But the underwater propulsion could be a problem; the original Ictineo II used the chemical reaction of zinc, manganese dioxide and potassium chlorate, that heated the boiler.

I could not found data about the level of Safehold chemistry. But, even if this components are unavaliable, the Church could use more simply avaliable pressurised air, as on Alexandrovsky submarine (1862). During the surface or shnorkel cruise, the air would be compressed with the help of steam engine, and stored in the cast-iron tubes. After dive, the compressed air would be diverted toward engine, for propulsion.

Of course, the compressed-air type would not have a really great underwater range, but after all, even WW-I submarines wasn't a great undervater sprinters. They generally used undervater propulsion only to get closer to target for attack.

- The main problem would be the weapons. It would be far too hard for the Church to produce some sort of gyro-stabilised torpedo, so they are out of question.

What could we use instead? I propose either/or pneumatic guns with large HE shells (like Zalinsky dynamite cannon), or underwater powder guns (like Ericsson torpedo cannon). The first would be able to provide range of over 1000 meters from the positioned submarine; the second would provide only about 100 meters range, but could be launched from completely submerged boat.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/tb/05050113.jpg

(Ericsson "Destroyer" underwater torpedo-gun)

Generally, my opinion is:

- 100-tonn submarine, with wooden hull, capable of 20-30 meters dive.

- Single-expansion steam engine for the surface operations, pneumatic or chemical engine for underwater propulsion (5-10 km underwater range)

- Armed with pneumatic gun and/or underwater torpedo gun, firing elongated torpedo-shells.

So, this is my opinion about the submarines. Let's not forget, that anti-submarine defense without the electricity would be a LOT harder, than in real world. 100-200 tonn subs, with steam surface and pneumatic underwater propulsion may be the great force in the Gulf of Dohlar, capable to at least make Charisian operation a lot more dangerous, if not drive the ICN out of the Gulf at all.

Dilandu wrote:Well, the general rule for lesser naval power is, that if the enemy controlled the surface - we would go underwater. And this rule were quite efficient; it may not be able to give you control over seas, but it definitely make the enemy war efforts much more difficult.

So, due to the Charis&Co surface domination - what about the possibility of Church&Co go underwater?

The Church already make a good step toward the screw propulsion, and have at least some data about modern mettalurgy and steam engines. Would it be possible for the Church and/or Dohlar to make the working submarine?

The good approximation of the submarine-building capabilites is the Ictineo II spanish submarine of 1860th. We could safely assume, that the 1860th Spain is not too far ahead of Church current capabilites. This small U-boat show, that it is at least theoretically possible to build the wooden-hulled submarine, capable of 30 meters dive and propelled by the thermal engine.

So:

- It is possible to build a watertight wooden hull, capable of stand the pressure of 30 meters. The Church, undoubtly, could do that.

- The powerplant could be more difficult. The Church have now at least the basics of steam engine theory, and were able to buildt at least simple single-expansion engines. But the underwater propulsion could be a problem; the original Ictineo II used the chemical reaction of zinc, manganese dioxide and potassium chlorate, that heated the boiler.

I'd figure the first efforts would be muscle-powered. It's familiar and wouldn't edge in on the Proscriptions. (Which are, granted, highly negotiable at this point.) They could actually get rowers, peddlers, or some sort of very placid dragon in there and the transmission of that to a screw propeller is already worked out.

I could not found data about the level of Safehold chemistry. But, even if this components are unavaliable, the Church could use more simply avaliable pressurised air, as on Alexandrovsky submarine (1862). During the surface or shnorkel cruise, the air would be compressed with the help of steam engine, and stored in the cast-iron tubes. After dive, the compressed air would be diverted toward engine, for propulsion.

Of course, the compressed-air type would not have a really great underwater range, but after all, even WW-I submarines wasn't a great undervater sprinters. They generally used undervater propulsion only to get closer to target for attack.

- The main problem would be the weapons. It would be far too hard for the Church to produce some sort of gyro-stabilised torpedo, so they are out of question.

What could we use instead? I propose either/or pneumatic guns with large HE shells (like Zalinsky dynamite cannon), or underwater powder guns (like Ericsson torpedo cannon). The first would be able to provide range of over 1000 meters from the positioned submarine; the second would provide only about 100 meters range, but could be launched from completely submerged boat.

I'd figure the first weapons would be spar torpedoes. They're quite dangerous and difficult to apply, of course, but they're also no great technical leap. An underwater ram is even cruder, but ramming speed out of the early sub, and aiming it effectively, would be tricky.

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/tb/05050113.jpg

(Ericsson "Destroyer" underwater torpedo-gun)

Generally, my opinion is:

- 100-tonn submarine, with wooden hull, capable of 20-30 meters dive.

- Single-expansion steam engine for the surface operations, pneumatic or chemical engine for underwater propulsion (5-10 km underwater range)

- Armed with pneumatic gun and/or underwater torpedo gun, firing elongated torpedo-shells.

So, this is my opinion about the submarines. Let's not forget, that anti-submarine defense without the electricity would be a LOT harder, than in real world. 100-200 tonn subs, with steam surface and pneumatic underwater propulsion may be the great force in the Gulf of Dohlar, capable to at least make Charisian operation a lot more dangerous, if not drive the ICN out of the Gulf at all.

Ehh... that's several technical hurdles for the Church to carry off, most likely starting from ports (Dohlar's) that they cannot count on keeping for years. And early subs tended to be deathtraps. I wouldn't bet on the Church having the combination of inventions, time, money, ports, and people to pull this off before the end.

JeffEngel wrote:I'd figure the first efforts would be muscle-powered. It's familiar and wouldn't edge in on the Proscriptions. (Which are, granted, highly negotiable at this point.) They could actually get rowers, peddlers, or some sort of very placid dragon in there and the transmission of that to a screw propeller is already worked out.

Yes, it's logical. They may try the combination of surface tug and submarine.

I'd figure the first weapons would be spar torpedoes. They're quite dangerous and difficult to apply, of course, but they're also no great technical leap. An underwater ram is even cruder, but ramming speed out of the early sub, and aiming it effectively, would be tricky.

Hm, the idea for the underwater guns, actually, was before spar torpedo. As i recall, even Fulton proposed something like that.

Ehh... that's several technical hurdles for the Church to carry off, most likely starting from ports (Dohlar's) that they cannot count on keeping for years. And early subs tended to be deathtraps. I wouldn't bet on the Church having the combination of inventions, time, money, ports, and people to pull this off before the end.

Well, this war definitely would not be the "final war" on Safehold?

Dilandu wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:I'd figure the first weapons would be spar torpedoes. They're quite dangerous and difficult to apply, of course, but they're also no great technical leap. An underwater ram is even cruder, but ramming speed out of the early sub, and aiming it effectively, would be tricky.

Hm, the idea for the underwater guns, actually, was before spar torpedo. As i recall, even Fulton proposed something like that.

Huh! Were they working before spar torpedoes though? Dating by idea would make some things out as surprisingly ancient.

Ehh... that's several technical hurdles for the Church to carry off, most likely starting from ports (Dohlar's) that they cannot count on keeping for years. And early subs tended to be deathtraps. I wouldn't bet on the Church having the combination of inventions, time, money, ports, and people to pull this off before the end.

Well, this war definitely would not be the "final war" on Safehold?

Probably not, but things get so much murkier forecasting beyond it. Subsequent wars may not even be particularly religious, with the CoGA representing a side. The unity and power of the Church have kept some sort of lid on the wars Safehold has seen til now. With those gone - and assuming the Church of Charis does not assume that role, which seems a fair assumption to me - there will be room for plenty of wars with other players.

JeffEngel wrote:Probably not, but things get so much murkier forecasting beyond it. Subsequent wars may not even be particularly religious, with the CoGA representing a side. The unity and power of the Church have kept some sort of lid on the wars Safehold has seen til now. With those gone - and assuming the Church of Charis does not assume that role, which seems a fair assumption to me - there will be room for plenty of wars with other players.

Well, even if the CoGA would cheased to be the main ringleader, there is aslo Dohlar, Harchong... and the alliance with Siddarmark would probably not last forever.

If the church builds subs without any indirect "help" from Charis it wouls show that the church was certianly doomed as the independent thinking to do that would be amazing for a church dedicated to the status Quo

Alistair wrote:If the church builds subs without any indirect "help" from Charis it wouls show that the church was certianly doomed as the independent thinking to do that would be amazing for a church dedicated to the status Quo

Of course, but it would at least make the situation not completely one-sided.

SPOILERS

The most likely person to come up with the submarine is Thirsk's wizard in Gorath. Unfortunately, neither Thirsk nor his wizard are likely to be around much longer. I fully expect the long-awaited Battle of Gorath in HFQ, in which the ICN will destroy the last remnants of the NoG, the screw galleys, and smash pretty much most of the infrastructure of the port city.

Thirsk may not be around by then, since even if we ignore RFC's "snippet" that seems to show Thirsk being assassinated, he'd most likely die by sailing his fleet out to meet the ICN once it moves deep into the Gulf of Dohlar after the Haarahld VIIs arrive. Since those armored, steam-powered ships can blow away a galleon with a single broadside and are a much more stable platform from which to shoot due to their size, they'll have a longer range in which they can expect to hit the enemy. The NoG may not get to within the range of their own guns before it ceases to exist, along with its admiral - except he appears to have something up his sleeve so he won't be leading any charges against the ICN.

If Thirsk's wizard escapes and the Inquisition puts him to work rather than murdering him, (don't count on that!) then he'd most likely be moved to Zion, and he'd have the winter to develop a submarine before the ICN arrives to seize the Temple in the next book. So I just don't think the CoGA has time to build a submarine, even a muscle powered one, before it's harbors and shipyards are destroyed.

Since the CoGA doesn't have the steam engine, and it will take a few years for them to steal the plans by spying on industrial engines that power factories in Charis and Chisholm, by which time they'll have lost the war, I don't know if they'll ever be in a position to use a submarine to strike at the ICN's mastery of the seas. They need subs, and the ICN doesn't, but the war will likely end within the next couple of years, plus the CoGA is bankrupt.

RFC will spin the story as he wills, and subs would equalize the equation a bit, but at the moment they'd only be viable in harbors, like Gorath Bay. If we don't see them there, we won't see them at all I'd bet.

I can just imagine the inquisition's response to this:

WHAT??

That would make it worth while all by itself, wouldn't it?

Don

SPOILER ALERT

I seriously doubt the Church has the time to mount such a defense, much less use submarines offensively against Charis. Nor does the church really need to, at least from their perspective. They are, after all, scoring at least some victories against Charisian warships with commerce raiding tactics, as mentioned in the HFQ chapter released on Thirsk's discussion with his officers and Rock Point's reflection on the discussion. And they still have Thirsk and his fleet which has managed to deter the ICN (so far). However, there is this passage from that same chapter:

“I think that’s probably true.” Thirsk nodded. “It’s not something I plan to count on, but one thing we have to avoid is overestimating Charis’ capabilities. I know it’s better to be pessimistic than to be overly optimistic, but we can’t paralyze ourselves with ‘what-ifs.’ Unless they have a hell of a lot more regular galleons based at Claw Island than reports suggest, we can meet their fleet on more than equal terms, and even an armored galleon needs spars to move. Between our own galleons and Lieutenant Zhwaigair’s screw-galleys — and that other project of his — I think we’d have a pretty good chance of handing them a serious defeat if they were foolish enough to come out where we can get at them. And the fact that they seem to be staying close to home at Claw Island now that they’ve retaken it suggests they may feel the same way about it.”

One does have to wonder what that "other project" might be after all. Something like a submarine perhaps? Perhaps Zhwaigair had a brainstorm after the hearing the reports of the ships purposefully sunk in Shwei Bay during Mahnthyr's original raid in the Gulf of Harchong (in AMT)?