The millennial return of the archangels might not be bad

Dilandu wrote:Well, let's think about something. Archangels should return after thousand years; why so much? If they were supposed to control the situation, the smaller time scale would be much more preferable to deal with situation.

My guess, is that the main goal of millenial return is to see who was right after all - would the religious matrix hold, or would it eventually crumble? And the results of Archangels return would probably depend of that data. If the Langhorne concept would proved itself unworkable under favorable conditions, and the system would started to change by itself, then there would be no point to try to hold it; in this case, the Archangels would probably just return to the original "Ark" plan with the millenia holding time.

So, the millenia scale was, probably, taken to give the Safehold time to develope by itself, and then see, would the doctrine hold or would it be overwhelmed by internal influence?

I find myself thinking that Nimue's influence would be recognized in Charis' spurt of development. Their first question is gonna be "who dunnit?" I am more pesimistic about events than the theme of this thread. Good guys win in the end, but the ride gets bumpy for a while...

Don

I don't think anyone here believes it won't be bumpy.

n7axw wrote:Just a nit here: It was the killing of Shan-wei at Armageddon Reef along with the rest of the Alexandria Enclave which then was followed by Pei Kauyung's use of his vest pocket nuke that took out Langehorne and a large part of the command crew. That initiated the War against the Fallen which was between survivors from both sides as well as factional infighting.

Don

Actually, a bit more of a nit. The War against the Fallen was not against any survivors from Alexandria - there were none, except those reeducated colonists she was able to place in other enclaves. Of these, there is evidence for exactly one, in Charis, that did NOT take part in the War against the Fallen. As RFC has posted in other discussions, the War against the Fallen was between different factions of Langehorne supporters who supported his plans to different degrees. There was no one left fighting in Shan-Wei's camp after the first day of the conflict, which basically opened with Rakurai attack and closed with Pei Kauyung's pocket nuke.

n7axw wrote:
I find myself thinking that Nimue's influence would be recognized in Charis' spurt of development. Their first question is gonna be "who dunnit?" I am more pesimistic about events than the theme of this thread. Good guys win in the end, but the ride gets bumpy for a while...

Don

Hm, but the Nimue may defend her position, claiming that the system was already crumbling under the corruption in Church (and after all, the Archangels should left more complete instruction! ) So, probablym the Archangels would be also divided - some of them would inclined to think that the Nimue spoil all the experiment and the system would not crumble if she would not interfere, some would be inclined to take the Nimue point, and claim that the system was ineffective before Nimue interfered.

Hildum wrote:

n7axw wrote:Just a nit here: It was the killing of Shan-wei at Armageddon Reef along with the rest of the Alexandria Enclave which then was followed by Pei Kauyung's use of his vest pocket nuke that took out Langehorne and a large part of the command crew. That initiated the War against the Fallen which was between survivors from both sides as well as factional infighting.

Don

Actually, a bit more of a nit. The War against the Fallen was not against any survivors from Alexandria - there were none, except those reeducated colonists she was able to place in other enclaves. Of these, there is evidence for exactly one, in Charis, that did NOT take part in the War against the Fallen. As RFC has posted in other discussions, the War against the Fallen was between different factions of Langehorne supporters who supported his plans to different degrees. There was no one left fighting in Shan-Wei's camp after the first day of the conflict, which basically opened with Rakurai attack and closed with Pei Kauyung's pocket nuke.

No, there were no survivors from the attack on the Alexandria enclave. But was everybody home? I can envision a unkown percentage of enclave members off doing other things when the attack rolled in. Probably not a big group of people, but surviors, nonetheless.

Don

Dilandu wrote:

n7axw wrote:
I find myself thinking that Nimue's influence would be recognized in Charis' spurt of development. Their first question is gonna be "who dunnit?" I am more pesimistic about events than the theme of this thread. Good guys win in the end, but the ride gets bumpy for a while...

Don

Hm, but the Nimue may defend her position, claiming that the system was already crumbling under the corruption in Church (and after all, the Archangels should left more complete instruction! ) So, probablym the Archangels would be also divided - some of them would inclined to think that the Nimue spoil all the experiment and the system would not crumble if she would not interfere, some would be inclined to take the Nimue point, and claim that the system was ineffective before Nimue interfered.

You seem to think these people are going to be interested in anything Nimue has to say. If they get their hands on her, she won't last long enough to be claiming much of anything.

Don

n7axw wrote:

Hildum wrote:Actually, a bit more of a nit. The War against the Fallen was not against any survivors from Alexandria - there were none, except those reeducated colonists she was able to place in other enclaves. Of these, there is evidence for exactly one, in Charis, that did NOT take part in the War against the Fallen. As RFC has posted in other discussions, the War against the Fallen was between different factions of Langehorne supporters who supported his plans to different degrees. There was no one left fighting in Shan-Wei's camp after the first day of the conflict, which basically opened with Rakurai attack and closed with Pei Kauyung's pocket nuke.

No, there were no survivors from the attack on the Alexandria enclave. But was everybody home? I can envision a unkown percentage of enclave members off doing other things when the attack rolled in. Probably not a big group of people, but surviors, nonetheless.

Don

As far as the Angelic War is concerned, it doesn't matter whether there were other survivors from Alexandria. They were not a significant factor in the War. The war was a war of succession among Langhorne's followers. It was later cast as a war against the forces of Shan-Wei, for public relations purposes.

SWM wrote:Some of us have suggested in the past that Langhorne was subject to extreme paranoia about the Gbaba, as well as possibly megalomania. In his neurotic mental state, he didn't merely want to duck his own head under the sand--he wanted the entire human race to hide. He was unwilling to accept analyses from other intelligent people that his plan could not work. A person in that kind of state is not likely to think rationally even in the face of clear evidence.

Come to think of it, there may have been a bit more than that. He was literally chosen and charged to lead humanity to a promised land and to mold them according to his design to keep them safe and healthy. That's an invitation for things to go to your head, and given any existing vulnerability to excesses of ego....

Also, the original Operation Ark plan would mean never being able to fulfill the directive to keep them safe oneself. You'd have to set humanity up to endure a few centuries without technology, except for some careful enclaves, then trust those enclaves to unleash it for the rest, and humanity to build back up carefully from there, and finally win against the scourge that made all this necessary. Not only may that strike someone coming through Earth's Last Generation as hopelessly optimistic, it meant that the Operation Ark command crew would be nothing more than the people setting humanity down for a bit of a nap and crossing their fingers that the rest of the plan worked. By contrast, if they could set up Safehold to remain forever pre-electric, then the job is done, settled - safe.

I do think he was wrong, and that what he did was monstrous in a number of ways. But circumstances may bring out cause for a bit of sympathy and seeing where he was coming from.

SWM wrote:I don't think anyone here believes it won't be bumpy.

I agree. RFC wouldn't have put all that advanced weaponry in Nimue's cave if it wasn't going to be needed.

n7axw wrote:
You seem to think these people are going to be interested in anything Nimue has to say. If they get their hands on her, she won't last long enough to be claiming much of anything.

Don

For what reason? She didn't do them any harm; actually, she wasn't even knew about their still-existience until a short time ago.