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The millennial return of the archangels might not be bad

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The millennial return of the archangels might not be bad
Post by BarryKirk   » Sat Mar 07, 2015 6:57 pm

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The Wylsans know that the Archangels will return because Schuler told them.

What if Schuler had second thoughts about Langhorne's plan?

One thousand years would be about the right timing to bring something back.
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Re: The millennial return of the archangels might not be bad
Post by MTO   » Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:46 pm

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I've been thinking something slightly similar. Suppose the whole conflict among the command crew was a ruse, or at least manufactured. They may have worried about the structure of humanity's politics after a few generations of terraforming and low-tech farming. Perhaps they planned on this war happening, maybe not in its exact form, but something like it. The big reveal may be done by the archangels, not Charis et al.
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Re: The millennial return of the archangels might not be bad
Post by SWM   » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:36 pm

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We've had several lively discussions on the idea before. There are a couple of variations on the idea. The version I've proposed a couple times is that Schueler might have been a loyal follower of Langhorne and believed suppressing technology was the best hope for mankind's future. But he still worried that Shan-wei was right that technology would inevitably be revived despite Langhorne's best efforts. To prevent humanity from accidentally running into the Gbaba without any warning, perhaps he set up a failsafe to be triggered if the Langhorne Plan collapsed.

The major difference between my idea and BarryKirk's is that he is suggesting that the Millennial Return was intended all along to reveal the Truth. My idea is based on the fact that Schueler told the Wylsynn's to use the Key if the Church were in danger of its very existence. Since Langhorne's Plan depends on the Church maintaining the status quo, an existential threat to the Church implies a failure of the Plan. So in my idea, it is the use of the Key (which is unrelated to the Millennial Return) which might reveal the Truth.

With little text to go on, it is difficult to evaluate these ideas. In fact, I'm not wedded to my own idea. There are still lots of possibilities, and we won't know more until we get more text evidence. But it is intriguing.
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Re: The millennial return of the archangels might not be bad
Post by SWM   » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:43 pm

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I will point out one weakness in BarryKirk's idea. Schueler charged the Wylsynn family with preserving the Church. The Wylsynn's were reformers--and reformation in this case means trying to push the Church back to its original teachings--the teachings written by Langhorne, before the rules were corrupted. In other words, the Wylsynn's were instructed to keep Langhorne's plan going.

If Schueler had second thoughts about the Langhorne Plan, it seems odd that he would tell his family to make sure the Plan worked.
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Re: The millennial return of the archangels might not be bad
Post by looksbeforeheleaps   » Sun Mar 08, 2015 12:23 am

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We have never been given a specific listing of which archangels were killed by Kau Yung's suicide mission. Also, we already know that the "Book of Schueler" was introduced after that war and have speculations by the Inner Circle that he did not actually write "his" book. Finally, we have his personal message to the Wylsynn's which is focused mostly on them remembering the church's duty to care for its flock and which inspired them to oppose corruption within the Vicars.

It seems possible that the Schueler Key was created before the final confrontation with Shan Wei, that Schueler did not survive that war and that whatever response Schueler left behind for his descendants is more focused on a threat from within the church than one from without.

In that case, it is difficult to say what side his avatar (in whatever form it took) would come down on in the current conflict. He presumably supports the original plan, but would be horrified by what the church has become. So he might be persuadable by the Inner Circle, particularly if the only surviving Wylsynn's are on the side of the reformers.
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Re: The millennial return of the archangels might not be bad
Post by SYED   » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:41 am

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Part of me wants the angels to come into conflict with the inquisition, due to him being crazy. they unlike every one else are not afraid of him, nor will accept his behavior. the fact they might be against him, will cause him to believe that they are not god's angels, but demons, as he is the inquisitor, so god must be behind him.
imagine if he does kill them, he would be helping to destroy the whole legacy of the angels.
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Re: The millennial return of the archangels might not be bad
Post by n7axw   » Sun Mar 08, 2015 4:10 pm

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looksbeforeheleaps wrote:We have never been given a specific listing of which archangels were killed by Kau Yung's suicide mission. Also, we already know that the "Book of Schueler" was introduced after that war and have speculations by the Inner Circle that he did not actually write "his" book. Finally, we have his personal message to the Wylsynn's which is focused mostly on them remembering the church's duty to care for its flock and which inspired them to oppose corruption within the Vicars.

It seems possible that the Schueler Key was created before the final confrontation with Shan Wei, that Schueler did not survive that war and that whatever response Schueler left behind for his descendants is more focused on a threat from within the church than one from without.

In that case, it is difficult to say what side his avatar (in whatever form it took) would come down on in the current conflict. He presumably supports the original plan, but would be horrified by what the church has become. So he might be persuadable by the Inner Circle, particularly if the only surviving Wylsynn's are on the side of the reformers.


Just a nit here: It was the killing of Shan-wei at Armageddon Reef along with the rest of the Alexandria Enclave which then was followed by Pei Kauyung's use of his vest pocket nuke that took out Langehorne and a large part of the command crew. That initiated the War against the Fallen which was between survivors from both sides as well as factional infighting.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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Re: The millennial return of the archangels might not be bad
Post by kaid   » Mon Mar 09, 2015 10:45 am

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It is very possible even if langhorn himself showed up he could recognize the wheels of progress are already to deeply rooted short of mind wiping the entire population again which would likely not be possible due to lack of implants they are on the course to eventually break out and encounter gababa again so the only real course would likely be try to ensure the best possible outcome of that encounter as possible.
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Re: The millennial return of the archangels might not be bad
Post by SWM   » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:49 pm

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kaid wrote:It is very possible even if langhorn himself showed up he could recognize the wheels of progress are already to deeply rooted short of mind wiping the entire population again which would likely not be possible due to lack of implants they are on the course to eventually break out and encounter gababa again so the only real course would likely be try to ensure the best possible outcome of that encounter as possible.

Perhaps. But that depends on whether Langhorne is sane.

David has indicated that Federation society during the later stages of the war was not a very healthy mental environment. An entire generation grew up knowing the entire planet was likely doomed. Living under a death sentence for the entire human race brought out a number of reactions in the population. The entire society was under extreme mental stress. The extreme sports that Nimue's peers engaged in was one symptom. David has not been very specific, but it seems likely that the Federation saw a rise in extreme cases of hedonism, apathy, neurosis, catatonia, psychosis, outright insanity, and all the other reactions people have to unendurable mental stress. At the time of Operation Breakout, very few people were completely sane by the standards of a more stable society. To one degree or another, everyone was affected. Even Nimue was somewhat warped by the environment of the Federation.

Some of us have suggested in the past that Langhorne was subject to extreme paranoia about the Gbaba, as well as possibly megalomania. In his neurotic mental state, he didn't merely want to duck his own head under the sand--he wanted the entire human race to hide. He was unwilling to accept analyses from other intelligent people that his plan could not work. A person in that kind of state is not likely to think rationally even in the face of clear evidence.
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Re: The millennial return of the archangels might not be bad
Post by Dilandu   » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:14 pm

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Well, let's think about something. Archangels should return after thousand years; why so much? If they were supposed to control the situation, the smaller time scale would be much more preferable to deal with situation.

My guess, is that the main goal of millenial return is to see who was right after all - would the religious matrix hold, or would it eventually crumble? And the results of Archangels return would probably depend of that data. If the Langhorne concept would proved itself unworkable under favorable conditions, and the system would started to change by itself, then there would be no point to try to hold it; in this case, the Archangels would probably just return to the original "Ark" plan with the millenia holding time.

So, the millenia scale was, probably, taken to give the Safehold time to develope by itself, and then see, would the doctrine hold or would it be overwhelmed by internal influence?
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Let's shorten it to very end - the length of Fuhrer's grave.

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